We've been discussing this in the team threads for a while.. but with 10 games left I think its time for it to be its own thread. Its simple.. you have an MVP vote... so who does it go to?
On MLB.com.. I found probably the best article where 2 writers... one covering the Sox and one covering the Yanks writes the case for their player from their respective team.
On MLB.com.. I found probably the best article where 2 writers... one covering the Sox and one covering the Yanks writes the case for their player from their respective team.
A-Rod or Big Papi? That's the question on everybody's minds as the regular season draws to an exciting conclusion. As the Yankees and Red Sox battle for the American League East crown, public debate over the league's Most Valuable Player award continues to dominate conversation.
The issue at hand: Should a designated hitter, Boston's David Ortiz, win the award over someone who plays the field every day, which New York's Alex Rodriguez does? How much should fielding count in this race?
Mark Feinsand, who covers the Yankees for MLB.com, and Ian Browne, who covers the Red Sox, exchanged emails debating this very topic.
Feinsand: Let me say one thing right off the bat: David Ortiz has been spectacular this season. If we were debating a Most Valuable Hitter award, I would probably give him my vote, hands down. But this is the Most Valuable Player we're talking about, and Alex Rodriguez brings so much more to a club than just his bat.
A-Rod's numbers are right there with Ortiz's (homers are just about the same, fewer RBIs, higher average), and he has played a Gold Glove season at third base. He's even helped the Yankees win some games with his baserunning. A-Rod recently went 0-for-4 against Toronto, yet still won the game for the Yankees by making a tremendous play on a 5-4-3 double play to end the game. Let's see Big Papi do that.
Browne: Mark, I must ask you. Is this the Most Valuable Player or the Most Valuable five-tool player? In my mind, the fact that Ortiz doesn't play defense almost gives him a more compelling case. The fact that a man is able to add so much value to his team simply by swinging a bat is astounding.
I hear a lot of people saying how A-Rod and Ortiz have almost identical numbers, so A-Rod's glove should put him over the top. Their numbers are only identical on the surface. Twenty of Ortiz's 46 home runs have either tied the score or put the Red Sox ahead. Of those 46 homers, 17 have come from the seventh inning on. This guy, as the Yankees know all too well, is a machine with the game on the line. As for that 5-4-3 double play you mentioned on a day A-Rod went 0-for-4, Big Papi would also love to see Big Papi do that. But since his manager does not let him play the field, it's difficult for him to play defense from the bench.
Ortiz would love to play first base, but Terry Francona would rather have Kevin Millar or John Olerud out there. The main reason is not that Ortiz is a poor defender. Did you see his throw across the diamond to nail Jeff Suppan in Game 3 of the World Series last year? The reason is that the Red Sox don't want to risk Ortiz injuring his legs playing defense because his bat is way too valuable to the team.
Feinsand: OK, Ian, just to show you that Ortiz's phenomenal rate of meaningful homers (20 out of 46), shouldn't separate him from Rodriguez, consider this: Of A-Rod's 45 jacks, 19 have either given the Yankees the lead or tied the game. Sounds like identical numbers to me.
I haven't seen enough of Ortiz in the field in my life to say whether he can play or not, but if he was a good defensive first baseman, he'd be in there. My point is not that the MVP has to go to a five-tool player, but when that player -- Rodriguez -- helps his team win in so many more ways than with his bat, the word valuable has to come into play. Last year, A-Rod's biggest problem was a lack of clutch hitting. This season, he has been as clutch as anyone, coming up with several crucial hits for the Yankees in the late innings.
Add to that the work he's done on the bases and in the field and you're basically writing the definition of an MVP. One more thing -- Alex is doing all of this in Yankee Stadium, a ballpark known for bringing right-handed power hitters to their knees. Papi has great power to right, which is ideal for Fenway, and he can basically bunt it over the Green Monster with his power, too. A-Rod has hit MORE homers at home than he has on the road, breaking the mark for homers by a right-hander in the Bronx. When the only other person in team history to top 40 homers as a right-hander is Joe DiMaggio, you're in pretty good company.
Browne: OK, Mark, first I must point out a very glaring error in your statement. Papi has great power to right, which is ideal for Fenway? Unless the measurements at Fenway Park are wrong, it is a 380-foot shot to straightaway right field at Fenway Park, which is where Ortiz has hit the majority of homers at home this year. Yes, it is 302 around the Pesky Pole, but that is a near impossible geometric home run. David has hit maybe one home run around the Pesky Pole this year, if that.
So what I'm saying is that it takes a lot more power for a left-handed hitter to pull a ball at Fenway than it does for a righty to pull a ball at Yankee Stadium. And A-Rod and Ortiz have an equally easy time hitting opposite field home runs at their home park, as they are both chip shots. But I'm digressing too much. Ortiz has the second highest single-season home run total in Red Sox history, narrowly trailing a Hall of Famer you might have heard of -- Jimmie Foxx. By tying or passing Foxx, Ortiz would also become the second player in the storied hitting history of the Red Sox to belt 50 home runs in a season.
With 46 homers, Ortiz is already the most prolific single-season left-handed hitter in Red Sox history, edging 1967 MVP Carl Yastrzemski and Mo Vaughn (1996). Ortiz doesn't play defense. It is what it is. He isn't a fast baserunner. It is what it is. But I think he is now tied with Vladimir Guerrero as the American League hitter that pitchers least want to face.
Feinsand: If we're going to name-drop in these arguments, that's not going to help your case. OK, so Ortiz trails Foxx for the highest single-season total. Let's take a look at who A-Rod trails. With his next homer, he'll tie DiMaggio for the most ever hit by a right-hander. In terms of lefties, he still stands behind Babe Ruth -- heard of him? -- and his five seasons of 49-plus homers, as well as Lou Gehrig's two 49-homer years and Roger Maris' 61-homer season in 1961. Add in a little switch-hitter named Mickey Mantle, who topped 50 long balls twice, and A-Rod is next on that list. Should Alex reach 50 homers, he would be just the fourth Yankee to reach that mark, joining Maris, Ruth and Mantle.
For a guy like Ortiz, 380 feet isn't even a challenge. Left-center field at Yankee Stadium measures 399 feet -- not exactly a chip shot. Yet A-Rod has done what no right-hander in team history has ever done, treating the dimensions like a Little League park. Boston's great power hitters have included Yastrzemski and Vaughn, both lefties. Other than Joe D., no right-hander has ever been able to figure out how to conquer The House That Ruth (there's that name again!) Built.
Of A-Rod's 26 homers in the Bronx this season, 18 have come left of center field -- and I'm not talking about pulling it down the line. I'm talking about landing them in Monument Park, as well as one that hit the back wall of the stadium, about 490 feet away from home plate. Not too shabby.
Browne: Mark, you make great points. You've convinced me that A-Rod is having a more tremendous season than I've given him credit for. Still, I give a slight edge to David. I think that his ability to continually deliver with the game on the line, along with the way he keeps the clubhouse loose with his easygoing personality, has meant an enormous amount to the 2005 Red Sox.
While I certainly don't think A-Rod is a bad guy by any stretch, I don't see him having the same type of clubhouse impact as Ortiz, which you can't underestimate in cities like Boston and New York. In a way, Ortiz's demeanor, which rubs off on the other 24 guys in the room on a daily basis in a pressurized market, compensates for the fact that he doesn't play defense. We have gone toe to toe on these stats, and the players are in a dead heat. But I think Ortiz's intangibles just might put him over the top. I guess after all this arguing, this award, much like the AL East itself, is still for the taking. May the best slugger win.
The issue at hand: Should a designated hitter, Boston's David Ortiz, win the award over someone who plays the field every day, which New York's Alex Rodriguez does? How much should fielding count in this race?
Mark Feinsand, who covers the Yankees for MLB.com, and Ian Browne, who covers the Red Sox, exchanged emails debating this very topic.
Feinsand: Let me say one thing right off the bat: David Ortiz has been spectacular this season. If we were debating a Most Valuable Hitter award, I would probably give him my vote, hands down. But this is the Most Valuable Player we're talking about, and Alex Rodriguez brings so much more to a club than just his bat.
A-Rod's numbers are right there with Ortiz's (homers are just about the same, fewer RBIs, higher average), and he has played a Gold Glove season at third base. He's even helped the Yankees win some games with his baserunning. A-Rod recently went 0-for-4 against Toronto, yet still won the game for the Yankees by making a tremendous play on a 5-4-3 double play to end the game. Let's see Big Papi do that.
Browne: Mark, I must ask you. Is this the Most Valuable Player or the Most Valuable five-tool player? In my mind, the fact that Ortiz doesn't play defense almost gives him a more compelling case. The fact that a man is able to add so much value to his team simply by swinging a bat is astounding.
I hear a lot of people saying how A-Rod and Ortiz have almost identical numbers, so A-Rod's glove should put him over the top. Their numbers are only identical on the surface. Twenty of Ortiz's 46 home runs have either tied the score or put the Red Sox ahead. Of those 46 homers, 17 have come from the seventh inning on. This guy, as the Yankees know all too well, is a machine with the game on the line. As for that 5-4-3 double play you mentioned on a day A-Rod went 0-for-4, Big Papi would also love to see Big Papi do that. But since his manager does not let him play the field, it's difficult for him to play defense from the bench.
Ortiz would love to play first base, but Terry Francona would rather have Kevin Millar or John Olerud out there. The main reason is not that Ortiz is a poor defender. Did you see his throw across the diamond to nail Jeff Suppan in Game 3 of the World Series last year? The reason is that the Red Sox don't want to risk Ortiz injuring his legs playing defense because his bat is way too valuable to the team.
Feinsand: OK, Ian, just to show you that Ortiz's phenomenal rate of meaningful homers (20 out of 46), shouldn't separate him from Rodriguez, consider this: Of A-Rod's 45 jacks, 19 have either given the Yankees the lead or tied the game. Sounds like identical numbers to me.
I haven't seen enough of Ortiz in the field in my life to say whether he can play or not, but if he was a good defensive first baseman, he'd be in there. My point is not that the MVP has to go to a five-tool player, but when that player -- Rodriguez -- helps his team win in so many more ways than with his bat, the word valuable has to come into play. Last year, A-Rod's biggest problem was a lack of clutch hitting. This season, he has been as clutch as anyone, coming up with several crucial hits for the Yankees in the late innings.
Add to that the work he's done on the bases and in the field and you're basically writing the definition of an MVP. One more thing -- Alex is doing all of this in Yankee Stadium, a ballpark known for bringing right-handed power hitters to their knees. Papi has great power to right, which is ideal for Fenway, and he can basically bunt it over the Green Monster with his power, too. A-Rod has hit MORE homers at home than he has on the road, breaking the mark for homers by a right-hander in the Bronx. When the only other person in team history to top 40 homers as a right-hander is Joe DiMaggio, you're in pretty good company.
Browne: OK, Mark, first I must point out a very glaring error in your statement. Papi has great power to right, which is ideal for Fenway? Unless the measurements at Fenway Park are wrong, it is a 380-foot shot to straightaway right field at Fenway Park, which is where Ortiz has hit the majority of homers at home this year. Yes, it is 302 around the Pesky Pole, but that is a near impossible geometric home run. David has hit maybe one home run around the Pesky Pole this year, if that.
So what I'm saying is that it takes a lot more power for a left-handed hitter to pull a ball at Fenway than it does for a righty to pull a ball at Yankee Stadium. And A-Rod and Ortiz have an equally easy time hitting opposite field home runs at their home park, as they are both chip shots. But I'm digressing too much. Ortiz has the second highest single-season home run total in Red Sox history, narrowly trailing a Hall of Famer you might have heard of -- Jimmie Foxx. By tying or passing Foxx, Ortiz would also become the second player in the storied hitting history of the Red Sox to belt 50 home runs in a season.
With 46 homers, Ortiz is already the most prolific single-season left-handed hitter in Red Sox history, edging 1967 MVP Carl Yastrzemski and Mo Vaughn (1996). Ortiz doesn't play defense. It is what it is. He isn't a fast baserunner. It is what it is. But I think he is now tied with Vladimir Guerrero as the American League hitter that pitchers least want to face.
Feinsand: If we're going to name-drop in these arguments, that's not going to help your case. OK, so Ortiz trails Foxx for the highest single-season total. Let's take a look at who A-Rod trails. With his next homer, he'll tie DiMaggio for the most ever hit by a right-hander. In terms of lefties, he still stands behind Babe Ruth -- heard of him? -- and his five seasons of 49-plus homers, as well as Lou Gehrig's two 49-homer years and Roger Maris' 61-homer season in 1961. Add in a little switch-hitter named Mickey Mantle, who topped 50 long balls twice, and A-Rod is next on that list. Should Alex reach 50 homers, he would be just the fourth Yankee to reach that mark, joining Maris, Ruth and Mantle.
For a guy like Ortiz, 380 feet isn't even a challenge. Left-center field at Yankee Stadium measures 399 feet -- not exactly a chip shot. Yet A-Rod has done what no right-hander in team history has ever done, treating the dimensions like a Little League park. Boston's great power hitters have included Yastrzemski and Vaughn, both lefties. Other than Joe D., no right-hander has ever been able to figure out how to conquer The House That Ruth (there's that name again!) Built.
Of A-Rod's 26 homers in the Bronx this season, 18 have come left of center field -- and I'm not talking about pulling it down the line. I'm talking about landing them in Monument Park, as well as one that hit the back wall of the stadium, about 490 feet away from home plate. Not too shabby.
Browne: Mark, you make great points. You've convinced me that A-Rod is having a more tremendous season than I've given him credit for. Still, I give a slight edge to David. I think that his ability to continually deliver with the game on the line, along with the way he keeps the clubhouse loose with his easygoing personality, has meant an enormous amount to the 2005 Red Sox.
While I certainly don't think A-Rod is a bad guy by any stretch, I don't see him having the same type of clubhouse impact as Ortiz, which you can't underestimate in cities like Boston and New York. In a way, Ortiz's demeanor, which rubs off on the other 24 guys in the room on a daily basis in a pressurized market, compensates for the fact that he doesn't play defense. We have gone toe to toe on these stats, and the players are in a dead heat. But I think Ortiz's intangibles just might put him over the top. I guess after all this arguing, this award, much like the AL East itself, is still for the taking. May the best slugger win.
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