What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

[Ckhoss29]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

The funny thing about this post is, people are making soriano a shoe in to make the hof. STOP STOP STOP! He is a great player but he might have just had one of those years(Brett Boone 2001) Give the guy a chance to play a few years then you can talk about soriano in the same Paragraph as AROD.

[Ckhoss29]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Strikeouts are not important if you think about it. Jose Hernandez had a ton of Ks, but he hit I think something like .280. It doesn't really make a huge difference if someone grounds out or strikes out. If their batting average and production are high, then strikeouts are just a stat.

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What about moving runners up, the ability to cause an error and still make it on. A fielders choice and getting that good speed on the basepaths. If soriano is a lead off hitter like he is in the yankees line up, you want that guy to put the bat on the ball more often than not. How can you say ground outs and strike outs are the same.

[Ckhoss29]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Strikeouts are not important if you think about it. Jose Hernandez had a ton of Ks, but he hit I think something like .280. It doesn't really make a huge difference if someone grounds out or strikes out. If their batting average and production are high, then strikeouts are just a stat.

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What about moving runners up, the ability to cause an error and still make it on. A fielders choice and getting that good speed on the basepaths. If soriano is a lead off hitter like he is in the yankees line up, you want that guy to put the bat on the ball more often than not. How can you say ground outs and strike outs are the same.

[bkrich83]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

Well I think Soriano is hitting out of position a bit at the leadoff spot. But when he hits there its out of neccesity, as I don't believe that team has a lot of speed to put at the top of the lineup. If your striking 150 times, but still getting 200+ hits, scoring 120+ runs and driving in 100+ runs, I would say you're still being a very productive hitter.

There are a lot of very very productive hitters who are in Soriano's k total range. (Burrell, Sosa, Glaus, Thome to name a few).

Bottom line is he got on base enough to steal 40 bases and score 120+ runs. He also hit .329 with runners in scoring position and .320 in Close and Late situations. Those aren't numbers to sneeze at.

Ichiro was also very productive in such situations. Hitting .361 with RISP, and .308 in C&amp;L situations.

Does he strike out too much, yes. But I think that he will improve as he gets older. But any way you slice it he's still a pretty darn good run producer.

Personally I think they both have strengths and weaknesses, but at 25 yrs. old I would take Soriano of the two.

[bkrich83]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

Well I think Soriano is hitting out of position a bit at the leadoff spot. But when he hits there its out of neccesity, as I don't believe that team has a lot of speed to put at the top of the lineup. If your striking 150 times, but still getting 200+ hits, scoring 120+ runs and driving in 100+ runs, I would say you're still being a very productive hitter.

There are a lot of very very productive hitters who are in Soriano's k total range. (Burrell, Sosa, Glaus, Thome to name a few).

Bottom line is he got on base enough to steal 40 bases and score 120+ runs. He also hit .329 with runners in scoring position and .320 in Close and Late situations. Those aren't numbers to sneeze at.

Ichiro was also very productive in such situations. Hitting .361 with RISP, and .308 in C&amp;L situations.

Does he strike out too much, yes. But I think that he will improve as he gets older. But any way you slice it he's still a pretty darn good run producer.

Personally I think they both have strengths and weaknesses, but at 25 yrs. old I would take Soriano of the two.

[ccplu59]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

Ichiro may not be a "better" player than Soriano, but Ichiro is definitely more rounded. Since when are offensive statistics the only dimension in baseball. Ichiro has a better arm, better fielding skills, and more speed.

For those of you who believe that Ichiro doesn't have power hasn't watched Ichiro much. Yes he only hit 8 HR's last year, but how do you explain his winning a HR contest in spring training last year? If you watch him play you will notice that Ichiro hasn't different style swings for different situations. When he wants to spray to the opposite field, his swing is very different then when he wants to go deep. When he does want to go deep you can tell. All I'm saying is that Ichiro is a true leadoff hitter who believes his job is to get on base and disrupt the pitcher's timing. He doesn't try to hit homeruns and if he did, he would probably hit more.

[ccplu59]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

Ichiro may not be a "better" player than Soriano, but Ichiro is definitely more rounded. Since when are offensive statistics the only dimension in baseball. Ichiro has a better arm, better fielding skills, and more speed.

For those of you who believe that Ichiro doesn't have power hasn't watched Ichiro much. Yes he only hit 8 HR's last year, but how do you explain his winning a HR contest in spring training last year? If you watch him play you will notice that Ichiro hasn't different style swings for different situations. When he wants to spray to the opposite field, his swing is very different then when he wants to go deep. When he does want to go deep you can tell. All I'm saying is that Ichiro is a true leadoff hitter who believes his job is to get on base and disrupt the pitcher's timing. He doesn't try to hit homeruns and if he did, he would probably hit more.

[keRplunK]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

Alright lets be fair to Ichiro when we compare his stats because in all honesty his play will more then likely lean to his MVP year with added walks that will help his OBP. His entire first half of last year will point to that.

In 2001 he hit .449 with RISP, last year he was hitting over .500 in the first half with RISP, in the second he declined quite dramactially because of his knee injury(infact he was a horrible player in the second half). I'm guessing though that he is closer to the palyer with a .350+ average for 3/4 of his career so far.

Ichiro's OPS in the first half was actually HIGHER the Soriano's full year(which is pretty remarkable considering that Ichiro's slugging is almost .100 lower then Soriano's).
Basically we won't know who is the better player until after this year(my money is on Ichiro), although who would I rather have for this year and the next 5? Soriano(if his age is accurate).

Now my second point. A-rod and Soriano's development is totally different. Other then Doubles and Homerruns nothing compares. A-rod learned how to take a walk in 1996 and he had Ken Griffey Jr(the best player in the game at the time) protecting him.

Alex's 1996 year .358 54, 36, .414 obp 1.045 OPS 15 SB's
Soriano's 2002 year .300 51, 39, .332 obp .879 OPS 41 SB's

The following year opposing teams studied A-rod like he was the MVP(should have been) and he couldn't adjust perfectly, he still had a good year, just not even close to the numbers the year before. He then went out in the 1998 season trying to prove that 1996 wasn't a fluke. He stole 46 bases and hit 42 homeruns while hitting infront of Jr. His OBP still dropped ALOT from his 1996 year about 50 points, but he made up for it in other ways. Soriano can become the 1998 A-rod if he can double his walks. He will never become like the 2002 A-rod. A-rods best year was in 2000 for the Mariners just so everybody knows.

bk- Alex stopped stealing as much because I think he views this as a long term project. Everytime you try to steal a base you put your body at risk. He views him self as a run producer and doesn't see the point of risking himself when in a ball park like arlington they play for the homerun anyways.

[keRplunK]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

Alright lets be fair to Ichiro when we compare his stats because in all honesty his play will more then likely lean to his MVP year with added walks that will help his OBP. His entire first half of last year will point to that.

In 2001 he hit .449 with RISP, last year he was hitting over .500 in the first half with RISP, in the second he declined quite dramactially because of his knee injury(infact he was a horrible player in the second half). I'm guessing though that he is closer to the palyer with a .350+ average for 3/4 of his career so far.

Ichiro's OPS in the first half was actually HIGHER the Soriano's full year(which is pretty remarkable considering that Ichiro's slugging is almost .100 lower then Soriano's).
Basically we won't know who is the better player until after this year(my money is on Ichiro), although who would I rather have for this year and the next 5? Soriano(if his age is accurate).

Now my second point. A-rod and Soriano's development is totally different. Other then Doubles and Homerruns nothing compares. A-rod learned how to take a walk in 1996 and he had Ken Griffey Jr(the best player in the game at the time) protecting him.

Alex's 1996 year .358 54, 36, .414 obp 1.045 OPS 15 SB's
Soriano's 2002 year .300 51, 39, .332 obp .879 OPS 41 SB's

The following year opposing teams studied A-rod like he was the MVP(should have been) and he couldn't adjust perfectly, he still had a good year, just not even close to the numbers the year before. He then went out in the 1998 season trying to prove that 1996 wasn't a fluke. He stole 46 bases and hit 42 homeruns while hitting infront of Jr. His OBP still dropped ALOT from his 1996 year about 50 points, but he made up for it in other ways. Soriano can become the 1998 A-rod if he can double his walks. He will never become like the 2002 A-rod. A-rods best year was in 2000 for the Mariners just so everybody knows.

bk- Alex stopped stealing as much because I think he views this as a long term project. Everytime you try to steal a base you put your body at risk. He views him self as a run producer and doesn't see the point of risking himself when in a ball park like arlington they play for the homerun anyways.

[Blaise]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

Not for nothing, you cant compare the two players. And if your going to, you have to look at the players, their positions, and teams. If you do, Ichiro is by far much better than Soriano.

Ichiro is a leadoff hitter, followed by Cameron, Boone, and Martinez. Soriano is a #2 or #3 hitter, sandwiched between Jeter, Williams or Giambi. Ichiro leads off innings probably 2 to three times a game. Soriano does maybe once a game. Soriano is more inclined to have a runner on base when he gets up, Ichiro is not. Ichiro takes more walks, which lowers his AB's. Plus Ichiro is Much better defensive and a much smarter batter than Soriano.

Lastly, Ichiro played hurt most of last year, and it showed. If you compare his 2001(his best yr so far) to Soriano's 2002(his best yr so far, its not even close)

[Blaise]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

Not for nothing, you cant compare the two players. And if your going to, you have to look at the players, their positions, and teams. If you do, Ichiro is by far much better than Soriano.

Ichiro is a leadoff hitter, followed by Cameron, Boone, and Martinez. Soriano is a #2 or #3 hitter, sandwiched between Jeter, Williams or Giambi. Ichiro leads off innings probably 2 to three times a game. Soriano does maybe once a game. Soriano is more inclined to have a runner on base when he gets up, Ichiro is not. Ichiro takes more walks, which lowers his AB's. Plus Ichiro is Much better defensive and a much smarter batter than Soriano.

Lastly, Ichiro played hurt most of last year, and it showed. If you compare his 2001(his best yr so far) to Soriano's 2002(his best yr so far, its not even close)

[bkrich83]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

Actually Soriano mostly did hit leadoff last year as evidenced by his 679 ab's in the #1 spot in the order. He had 17 total ab's from the other spots in the order.

To say their not even close may not be fair. As just missing 40/40 with 50+ 2b's and 100+ rbi's and 100+ run scored is something that Ichiro will never be able to accomplish.

Who ever talked about the defense is totally correct. Ichiro is about as good as they come in the outfield, while Soriano is a liability at 2nd at this stage. The speed factor that came up, I would say they are a push, as Soriano actually stole more bases and scored more runs, but I would say they are equally as dangerous on the base paths.

[bkrich83]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

Actually Soriano mostly did hit leadoff last year as evidenced by his 679 ab's in the #1 spot in the order. He had 17 total ab's from the other spots in the order.

To say their not even close may not be fair. As just missing 40/40 with 50+ 2b's and 100+ rbi's and 100+ run scored is something that Ichiro will never be able to accomplish.

Who ever talked about the defense is totally correct. Ichiro is about as good as they come in the outfield, while Soriano is a liability at 2nd at this stage. The speed factor that came up, I would say they are a push, as Soriano actually stole more bases and scored more runs, but I would say they are equally as dangerous on the base paths.

[Molitor]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

As far as things go in the fantasy baseball world, Soriano is much more valuable then Ichiro. Lets throw defense out the door right now,, because Ichiro is near perfect in the outfield.

If you are drafting on pure offensive numbers, no 2b comes close, end of arguement.

While if I was ranking RF or CF, Ichiro would probably fall in the middle to back end of my top 10.

So I can see where3 Soriano recieves a higher value in fantasy baseball, or baseball in general....

Best,

Molitor

[Molitor]

Re: What a joke Soriano better than Ichiro !

As far as things go in the fantasy baseball world, Soriano is much more valuable then Ichiro. Lets throw defense out the door right now,, because Ichiro is near perfect in the outfield.

If you are drafting on pure offensive numbers, no 2b comes close, end of arguement.

While if I was ranking RF or CF, Ichiro would probably fall in the middle to back end of my top 10.

So I can see where3 Soriano recieves a higher value in fantasy baseball, or baseball in general....

Best,

Molitor