Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

[bkrich83]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I just wish he hadnt missed those prime years to the war. He missed out on about 105 homers (giving him over 600), 390 RBI (giving him over 2000), 540 hits (giving him over 3000), 390 runs (giving him over 2000).

Not to mention the year and a half he missed to injury in 1952-53 in which he only played 43 games total. He could have been the greatest player ever. Definetly one of the most cerebral players the game has seen.

Yup. We have a soft spot for him out here. He's a native of San Diego, he played for the Padres way back when they were just a tiny local minor league team.

[bkrich83]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I'm not sure I get the connection.
Are you saying I had to actually WITNESS a player play before I can consider him great?...I didn't realize I had such a wide sweeping influence on greatness. I like it!
You're reachin' BK....like I said before....my opinion...

But you're right....I'm sure if I would have seen Cobb play...I would have realized that his .366 lifetime batting average was just a fluke and he actually sucked.

Besides, he was a former bridgebuilder...but for much different reasons...so okay take him out and replace him with ANOTHER guy who was better than bonds(I came in here to edit the b to a capital....but I kinda like it that way...it fits him).... Joe D....no wait...another.......how about Ted Williams?....no scratch that...aw heck....I can't pick one when there are so many more...


M.K.
Knight165

You know Teddy Ball game was better than Bonds how? If going purely on statistics, which you seem to be doing, that would be a tough argument to make.

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

The issue with Bonds is that we can't get a measure of his greatness over the span of his entire career as with some of the other greats mentioned in this thread.

If what is in Game of Shadows is true, then Bonds first year using steroids was 1998. The legacy he created and resume he compiled from '86-'97 can't be ignored, but I don't think I can group him in with the likes of Mays, Ruth, Mantle, and Williams.

The unfortunate thing about Bonds is that what made him great is ultimately what drove him to performance enhancers.....pride and ego.

[bkrich83]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

The issue with Bonds is that we can't get a measure of his greatness over the span of his entire career as with some of the other greats mentioned in this thread.

If what is in Game of Shadows is true, then Bonds first year using steroids was 1998. The legacy he created and resume he compiled from '86-'97 can't be ignored, but I don't think I can group him in with the likes of Mays, Ruth, Mantle, and Williams.

The unfortunate thing about Bonds is that what made him great is ultimately what drove him to performance enhancers.....pride and ego.

And I buy in to that. But Squint as a Padre fan, you've seen Bonds ridiculous abilities enhanced or not, as much as anyone. But I agree with your direction here.

Bottomline, who out there, showed the same power/speed/glove combo that he has? 500/500 club, 8 gold gloves, 7 MVP's. Pretty tough to argue against. And again, make no mistake I have no love lost for Barry Bonds. Personally I think he's a jackass, probably a cheat, but one of the greatest baseball players of all time no doubt. Anyone who tries to deny how great he has been, and his talent is either fooling themselves or has an agenda.

Again, I also find it curiout that Roger Clemens, someone who has some of the same unanswered questions surrounding him, doesn't fall under this kind of scrutiny.

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I just wish he hadnt missed those prime years to the war. He missed out on about 105 homers (giving him over 600), 390 RBI (giving him over 2000), 540 hits (giving him over 3000), 390 runs (giving him over 2000).

Not to mention the year and a half he missed to injury in 1952-53 in which he only played 43 games total. He could have been the greatest player ever. Definetly one of the most cerebral players the game has seen.

Don't short the man....'52-'53 were his service years in the Korean War. '55-'56 were injury years.

The man was a stud in every sense of the word.

[chippered]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Don't short the man....'52-'53 were his service years in the Korean War. '55-'56 were injury years.

The man was a stud in every sense of the word.

Your right, I forgot about his second term. Good call.

[bkrich83]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

The issue with Bonds is that we can't get a measure of his greatness over the span of his entire career as with some of the other greats mentioned in this thread.

If what is in Game of Shadows is true, then Bonds first year using steroids was 1998. The legacy he created and resume he compiled from '86-'97 can't be ignored, but I don't think I can group him in with the likes of Mays, Ruth, Mantle, and Williams.

The unfortunate thing about Bonds is that what made him great is ultimately what drove him to performance enhancers.....pride and ego.

I'd argue his best year was '96. .308 avg, 42 bombs, 40 SB's, 129 RBI, 151 BB, 76 K's, 122 R's. Also won a Gold Glove that year.

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

And I buy in to that. But Squint as a Padre fan, you've seen Bonds ridiculous abilities enhanced or not, as much as anyone. But I agree with your direction here.

Bottomline, who out there, showed the same power/speed/glove combo that he has? 500/500 club, 8 gold gloves, 7 MVP's. Pretty tough to argue against. And again, make no mistake I have no love lost for Barry Bonds. Personally I think he's a jackass, probably a cheat, but one of the greatest baseball players of all time no doubt. Anyone who tries to deny how great he has been, and his talent is either fooling themselves or has an agenda.

Again, I also find it curiout that Roger Clemens, someone who has some of the same unanswered questions surrounding him, doesn't fall under this kind of scrutiny.

I can't deny how great he was. His three (what should have been four) MVPs long before the alleged steroid use are evidence of that.

In his prime he had nearly the perfect swing. Short, compact, and the quickest I ever saw throught hitting zone.

The question is can I (or you) place him ahead of some of the greats given everything that "greatness" encompasses:

1. Mays - No
2. Williams - No
3. Ruth - No
4. Cobb -Yes
5. Aaron - Yes (Close)
6. Robinson - Yes (Close)
7. Gehrig - Yes (I think)
8. Dimaggio - Yes
9. Mantle - No

Those are really quick off the top of my head. I think you get the point.

[chippered]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

The thing we need to ask ourselves is just how much better can a player be if he takes steroids. I can see guys like Incavilia and Deer being steroids guys, just to name a couple. They really didnt seem to help them to much.

Yeah, they make you stronger, but they dont help you hit the ball. 80% is a number thats been thrown about when asked what percentage of MLBers took steroids. Bonds was still heads and shoulders better.

Before I could ever pass judgement, I 'd have to know two things: Did a player indeed take steroids, and how much better could steroids make a player?

Also, you can blame the players all you want, but the owners had no problem with the players getting bigger until congress intervened. Now the owners and Selig want to make the players walk the plank? I dont think so. EVERYBODY, players and owners, got rich when the game got bigger.

[chippered]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I can't deny how great he was. His three (what should have been four) MVPs long before the alleged steroid use are evidence of that.

In his prime he had nearly the perfect swing. Short, compact, and the quickest I ever saw throught hitting zone.

The question is can I (or you) place him ahead of some of the greats given everything that "greatness" encompasses:

1. Mays - No
2. Williams - No
3. Ruth - No
4. Cobb -Yes
5. Aaron - Yes (Close)
6. Robinson - Yes (Close)
7. Gehrig - Yes (I think)
8. Dimaggio - Yes
9. Mantle - No

Those are really quick off the top of my head. I think you get the point.

But what in your opinion does greatness encompass?

[bkrich83]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I can't deny how great he was. His three (what should have been four) MVPs long before the alleged steroid use are evidence of that.

In his prime he had nearly the perfect swing. Short, compact, and the quickest I ever saw throught hitting zone.

The question is can I (or you) place him ahead of some of the greats given everything that "greatness" encompasses:

1. Mays - No
2. Williams - No
3. Ruth - No
4. Cobb -Yes
5. Aaron - Yes (Close)
6. Robinson - Yes (Close)
7. Gehrig - Yes (I think)
8. Dimaggio - Yes
9. Mantle - No

Those are really quick off the top of my head. I think you get the point.

See I think if looking strictly at production and the tools, he compares favorably with May, Williams and Ruth. I don't see anything those guys could do that he couldn't. With the exception of possibly the ability to throw the ball from the OF.

It's tough to compare players from vastly different era's, but I'd argue he was as talented or more talented than anyone on that list. Better than them? It's debatable, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as you do.

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

But what in your opinion does greatness encompass?

A few things:

Their natural ability in all aspects of the game is first and foremost. I think effect on their team as a whole is another. You also have to take the era they played in into consideration.

I could care less if Bonds was an a-hole. How did it effect his team year in and year out?

[chippered]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

A few things:

Their natural ability in all aspects of the game is first and foremost. I think effect on their team as a whole is another. You also have to take the era they played in into consideration.

I could care less if Bonds was an a-hole. How did it effect his team year in and year out?

I was hoping thats what you would say. I agree. I dont like it when people rank players based on off and on the field performance.

[NYJets]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Well, which Bonds are we talking about?

It's tough to compare him with the all time greats because Bonds before steroids and Bonds after steroids were completely different players.

Like with Ruth, before steroids Bonds was clearly more of an all around position player than him. Gold glove defense and he stole bases. But he wasn't nearly the hitter that Ruth was until after steroids, and at that point he no longer had the all around player advantage, as he stopped stealing bases and his defense deteriorated.

[bkrich83]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Well, which Bonds are we talking about?

It's tough to compare him with the all time greats because Bonds before steroids and Bonds after steroids were completely different players.

Like with Ruth, before steroids Bonds was clearly more of an all around position player than him. Gold glove defense and he stole bases. But he wasn't nearly the hitter that Ruth was until after steroids, and at that point he no longer had the all around player advantage, as he stopped stealing bases and his defense deteriorated.

Not totally true. Look at '96 for example. .308 average. 40/40 HR/SB, 129 RBI, and won a Gold Glove.