Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

[Bravesfan47]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Ruth was a better hitter the Bonds. Bonds is a .299 career hitter, Ruth .342. Ruth also has 249 more RBI's the Bonds. .690 slugging for Ruth vs. .608 for Bonds. .444 OBP for Ruth vs. .444 for Bonds. Bonds has also struck out more then Ruth. 1330 for Ruth to 1515 for Bonds. Bonds has the glove on Ruth for sure, and he did steal over 500 bags. But Ruth did have over 100 steals...Not great but not bad for a slugger. So Bonds beats him out in steals of course and is also a better with the glove the Ruth....But Ruth also won 94 games a pitcher and had a career ERA of 2.28....Hell he might of made the Hall of fame as a pitcher. I'd take the bat of Ruth over the complete package of Bonds. And if were talking pre-steroids for Bonds then Bonds isn't even in the top 10 to 20 players ever let alone compared to Ruth. Just my opinion of course.

[eXperiment63]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

A lot of people forget that back when those batting averages were so high... The gloves the fielders wore were like doctor's gloves. Unless you caught it in your palm, you weren't catching it. They weren't tied together with a web like today's player's gloves.

That is a BIG reason why so many people had such high averages back then.

EDIT: Also, low ERAs were a bit more norm because of the extra 18" height of the mound. Not to discount his 2.28, but I'm betting today that wouldn't even be under 4. That is what makes Pedro's best years so much more special.

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Or if Ruth played in a league with 30 teams, watered down pitching talent, smaller ballparks, plane trips instead of train trips and better equipment what kind of damage could he have done?

When Ruth played there were 12 teams consisting of only white players. Most of the major league teams had 10 or more farm teams so there were plenty of very good white players who didn't play in the majors back then along with players of other races. Plus, participation in baseball was starting to reach its peak because kids didn't play other sports like they did baseball so there were plenty of talented players available.

There is no way you can say the level of competition was less when Ruth played when you factor in the number teams compared to today regardless of the exclusion of players of color.

I can completely break apart your reply piece by piece:

1. Ruth played in a segregated time. He didn't have to compete against a deep talent pool that made up the Negro Leagues. That kind of makes a wash of your "watered down" argument.

2. Plane trips versus train trips. Teams now have flights across the country and even internationally, changing time zones, and expected to play the next day.

3. What better equipment? A maple bat instead of ash? Or are you referring to the fact that players have larger gloves in todays game instead of the hand glove they played with back then? Who does that favor?

4. There are more people on the planet then there was back then. Thus, a deeper talent pool. The latin player, the black player, and even the asian player more than even out your "watered down" theory.

5. Players now face a split-fingered fastballs, sliders, circle-changes....you name it. My guess is that the average player from the teens-50's wouldn't stand a chance against today's pitching.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Ruth was a better hitter the Bonds. Bonds is a .299 career hitter, Ruth .342. Ruth also has 249 more RBI's the Bonds. .690 slugging for Ruth vs. .608 for Bonds. .444 OBP for Ruth vs. .444 for Bonds. Bonds has also struck out more then Ruth. 1330 for Ruth to 1515 for Bonds. Bonds has the glove on Ruth for sure, and he did steal over 500 bags. But Ruth did have over 100 steals...Not great but not bad for a slugger. So Bonds beats him out in steals of course and is also a better with the glove the Ruth....

It's not as simple as just stacking stats from different eras side by side and saying Player A is better than Player B.

[Tomahawk]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I can completely break apart your reply piece by piece:

1. Ruth played in a segregated time. He didn't have to compete against a deep talent pool that made up the Negro Leagues. That kind of makes a wash of your "watered down" argument.

Ruth played against the 12 best white teams while Bonds plays against the 30 best teams. Sorry, but I don't see much difference in the quality available.

2. Plane trips versus train trips. Teams now have flights across the country and even internationally, changing time zones, and expected to play the next day.

If you are ever in Atlanta go in the Braves museum and look at the train the team traveled on while they played in Boston. I'm sure I would take a 5 hour luxury flight to anywhere they play now over a 5 or more hour train ride. Also, teams get more days off now than they did back then.

3. What better equipment? A maple bat instead of ash? Or are you referring to the fact that players have larger gloves in todays game instead of the hand glove they played with back then? Who does that favor?

Technology evolves over time. Bats and balls are made much better now than back then. Balls hit with bats made today travel farther because the balls have better cores and are better woven plus the bats are designed to generate more bat speed speed due to the thinner handles and lighter models of today.

4. There are more people on the planet then there was back then. Thus, a deeper talent pool. The latin player, the black player, and even the asian player more than even out your "watered down" theory.

More teams and more players does not always equal better quality. Most baseball people have talked about the lack of quality pitching for years.

5. Players now face a split-fingered fastballs, sliders, circle-changes....you name it. My guess is that the average player from the teens-50's wouldn't stand a chance against today's pitching.

I'm sure no one threw a change up 50 years ago, but of course the spitter was quite legal. Also, I'm sure without having body armor and a batting helmet that Mr. Bonds and the players of today would dig in real good against the pitchers of the past who also had the advantage of throwing off of a much higher mound.

[Knight165]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

5. Players now face a split-fingered fastballs, sliders, circle-changes....you name it. My guess is that the average player from the teens-50's wouldn't stand a chance against today's pitching.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

I can let every other part of your arguement go except this one.
No way no how are players of today somehow just able to hit any of those pitches you mentioned...(and I'm sure there was some variation of a slider pre-50's) when players of yesteryear could not.
Just not logical....you lost me on that one.

M.K.
Knight165

[Bravesfan47]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

It's not as simple as just stacking stats from different eras side by side and saying Player A is better than Player B.

Well how else do you want to do it then? As someone else said, the talent pool today isnt exactly deep....30 teams vs 10...I understand that Ruth might not have face blacks and latino's but how many good black and latino pichers were their back then? Who knows? But would it have made a huge impact? I don't know if their was a large amount of latino's even interested in the game back then, but of course I could be wrong. As far as black pitchers, well, to be fair here how many great black pitchers have their been since Bonds came into the league?

And something else thats funny to me is that when I used numbers to compare the older pitchers to Clemens everyone said that you can't do that because they didn't face good hitters in their day....And then when people argue that Ruth and Cobb and Wagner and so on didn't face good pitching it kinda boggles my mind....So which is it then? Could they not hit in the olden days or could they not pitch?

As far as travling.....Well changing timezones happend in Ruths day to....Atleast I always though Chicago and NY were in different timezones...and taking a plane vs. taking a train.......I don't know about you but i'd say taking a plane would be better for you if you travle on a consistant basis just because it gets you their faster....And besides the breif dissaster the Expoes went through how many international games are played? I know Toronto but that isn't exactly flying to far, hell its an easier flight from NY and Boston to Toronto then it is to say Arizona or SF. And they played 155 games a season back in Ruths day...not exactly a light schedual...plenty of Back to back games.

Interms of equipment, well, you've gotta be kidding yourself if you don't think equipment has changed in the last 70 yearts......I don't recall of any hitters going to the plate with all kinds of body armour to protect them, or even a helmet back then......Batting gloves weren't around either. As far as bats, Well they werent personally designing bats for guys back then where they? I could be wrong but I dont think they were.


As far as the types of pitches, your kidding yourself if you think most of them are limited to modern day ball. Hell by the time Ruth came along baseball was already 30-40 years old....you don't really think they only had 2 or 3 pitches back then do ya?

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Ruth played against the 12 best white teams while Bonds plays against the 30 best teams. Sorry, but I don't see much difference in the quality available.

The population in 1930 was 123,000,000 compared to 291,000,000 in 2000. That is 2.5 times. I can guarantee you that increases the talent pool. Not to mention that some kid destined to be a farmer somewhere in Nebraska back in the 20's is getting scouted from the time he is 13 in today's game.

If you are ever in Atlanta go in the Braves museum and look at the train the team traveled on while they played in Boston. I'm sure I would take a 5 hour luxury flight to anywhere they play now over a 5 or more hour train ride. Also, teams get more days off now than they did back then.

Again, time zones. Travel from coast to coast and even into Canada and Japan. We're talking train trips from New York to Boston and Cleveland as compared to flights from New York to Los Angeles to Texas.

Technology evolves over time. Bats and balls are made much better now than back then. Balls hit with bats made today travel farther because the balls have better cores and are better woven plus the bats are designed to generate more bat speed speed due to the thinner handles and lighter models of today.

Did you happen to see the gloves they used back then? (As mentioned in a previous post.)


More teams and more players does not always equal better quality. Most baseball people have talked about the lack of quality pitching for years.

Again.....a deeper talent pool. How many black, latin, and asian players were there back then? Did it ever occur to you that players faced the same teams nearly double the amount of times they do now. I can't begin to imagine how much benefit it is to have the familiarity with pitchers you see over and over again (release points, pitching trends, etc.)

I'm sure no one threw a change up 50 years ago, but of course the spitter was quite legal. Also, I'm sure without having body armor and a batting helmet that Mr. Bonds and the players of today would dig in real good against the pitchers of the past who also had the advantage of throwing off of a much higher mound.

Banned in 1920. Ruth's heyday started in the late 20's. Try again. The circle change is quite new (relatively speaking).

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I can let every other part of your arguement go except this one.
No way no how are players of today somehow just able to hit any of those pitches you mentioned...(and I'm sure there was some variation of a slider pre-50's) when players of yesteryear could not.
Just not logical....you lost me on that one.

M.K.
Knight165

I'm sure there was a variation of the slider, but not at near the one Randy Johnson delivers at 90 MPH. And yes, players of today are facing these pitches at much younger ages than they were back in the 20s, 30s, and 40s.

It's completely logical.

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Well how else do you want to do it then? As someone else said, the talent pool today isnt exactly deep....30 teams vs 10...I understand that Ruth might not have face blacks and latino's but how many good black and latino pichers were their back then? Who knows? But would it have made a huge impact? I don't know if their was a large amount of latino's even interested in the game back then, but of course I could be wrong. As far as black pitchers, well, to be fair here how many great black pitchers have their been since Bonds came into the league?

And something else thats funny to me is that when I used numbers to compare the older pitchers to Clemens everyone said that you can't do that because they didn't face good hitters in their day....And then when people argue that Ruth and Cobb and Wagner and so on didn't face good pitching it kinda boggles my mind....So which is it then? Could they not hit in the olden days or could they not pitch?

As far as travling.....Well changing timezones happend in Ruths day to....Atleast I always though Chicago and NY were in different timezones...and taking a plane vs. taking a train.......I don't know about you but i'd say taking a plane would be better for you if you travle on a consistant basis just because it gets you their faster....And besides the breif dissaster the Expoes went through how many international games are played? I know Toronto but that isn't exactly flying to far, hell its an easier flight from NY and Boston to Toronto then it is to say Arizona or SF. And they played 155 games a season back in Ruths day...not exactly a light schedual...plenty of Back to back games.

Interms of equipment, well, you've gotta be kidding yourself if you don't think equipment has changed in the last 70 yearts......I don't recall of any hitters going to the plate with all kinds of body armour to protect them, or even a helmet back then......Batting gloves weren't around either. As far as bats, Well they werent personally designing bats for guys back then where they? I could be wrong but I dont think they were.


As far as the types of pitches, your kidding yourself if you think most of them are limited to modern day ball. Hell by the time Ruth came along baseball was already 30-40 years old....you don't really think they only had 2 or 3 pitches back then do ya?

Can people really be this dense?

Chicago - New York = 1 time zone. New York - California = 3 time zones.

Have you seen the balls they used back then? Do you think they had the threads raised as much as they do now? The grip and rotation pitchers get on the ball in today's game puts them to shame (pre 30's).

And the fatigue factor. Pitchers threw every three days back then. How fatigued do you think they were by mid-season? You don't think there was a loss of velocity on they fastball or less of bite on their breaking ball?

[chippered]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I think it helps stars become superstars (McGwire), average players become All-Stars (Brady Anderson), and Hall of Famers become the best player of all time (Bonds).

Thats a fair arguement.

Right, it was not illegal in this country to purchase steriods in this country before 2004. I remember being able to buy them at Wal-Mart right after Ben Johnson won the Gold medal in 1988. Also, I remember going to McDonalds and getting some HGH with my chicken nuggets the day Lyle Alzado died in 1992.


Of course, if MLB doesn't start testing for it until 2004 it couldn't have been illegal in this country because MLB sets the standard for this country.

I gotcha and stand corrected.

Of course MLB doesnt set the standard for the US. It sets the standard for MLB. If it was wasnt illegal for MLB'ers to do roids, then how can you condemn them for breaking the rules of the game? We're talking about the rules of the game, not the rules followed by the general citizinship. Therefore, when we discuss the integrety of baseball records, we should place these records against the rules of the game.

[Knight165]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I'm sure there was a variation of the slider, but not at near the one Randy Johnson delivers at 90 MPH. And yes, players of today are facing these pitches at much younger ages than they were back in the 20s, 30s, and 40s.

It's completely logical.

Really? So Ty Cobb...Honus Wagner and co. would be merely average hitters at BEST according to your arguement.
NO WAY
and I'd be willing to bet that somebody threw a damn hard breaking ball...maybe BETTER than Randy Johnsons(maybe not) that could have been a slider, but not just called one. But while you speculate not...I'm just speculating that they did.
Your arguments are "compelling", but I'm just not buying it. Just doesn't make sense to me when I REALLY think about it.
Are today's players bigger, stronger? Yep. No doubt for most/some. But as far as fundemental baseball skills....I'd be willing to bet that the pre-50's players BLOW THESE GUYS AWAY...so we'll call it even and go back to just baseball skills..
(man, I'm arguing with a lot of people today. I think I'll quit while I'm ahead)


M.K.
Knight165

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Really? So Ty Cobb...Honus Wagner and co. would be merely average hitters at BEST according to your arguement.
NO WAY

I'm fairly certain I said "average" player and not the likes of Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb, and company.

[chippered]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

I can completely break apart your reply piece by piece:

5. Players now face a split-fingered fastballs, sliders, circle-changes....you name it. My guess is that the average player from the teens-50's wouldn't stand a chance against today's pitching.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

I agree with everything but this.

Ironically, i'm reading a Ruth biography right now, and in it he discusses the spitter and steady diet of offspeed pitches he faced on a gamely basis after he started hitting homers at a consistent pace. Actually, he sounded a lot like announcers do when discussing the way Bonds is pitched to. He was unintentionally intentionally walked a lot.

Also, after reading Buck O'neils latest book, he discusses how the splitter looks a lot like the spitter, same break and velocity. In fact, he and Tony Oliva (I think thats who it was) completely discarded the splitter, saying that pitchers get away with throwing spitters, or a variation of it, these days much more than fans think.

So, I dont really believe that most average hitters from the past would have much trouble hitting against todays pitchers. Plus, pitchers from this era dont pitch inside nearly as much as pitcher from Ruth's era did. Hell, the only guy to die getting hit by a pitched ball played during Ruth's era.

[Scottdau]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Giants fans are the worst. I remember when I lived up there, they were always trying to convince anyone who would listen that Robby Thompson was better than Ryne Sandberg.

Not me, but the park does play a big part. I would have love to seen what Sand would have done in Candle Stick!