Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

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  • chippered
    MVP
    • Aug 2002
    • 1528

    #106
    Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

    Originally posted by Squint
    Let me rephrase for all of you getting hung up on one part of my original post.....

    While pitchers back then may have thrown one pitch (or a variation of it) here or there, the quality of those pitches has gotten better and pitchers of today have more of an arsenal of them. Pedro Martinez comes at hitters with a devastating fastball, curve, slider, and change at a multitude of arm angles. My opinion is that he could dominate hitters back then. Clemens has a dominant fastball, slider, and one of the best forkballs ever. Again, this isn't to say Babe Ruth never faced a slider, but did he face quality pitchers with that type of repertoire? Kids today are throwing these pitches at 11-12 years old. They are developing these pitches at such an early age that seeing pitchers with four quality pitches is getting to be the norm.

    This whole point of only have 12 teams so the quality was better is garbage too. 12 teams * 4 pitchers (3-4 man rotations were the norm) = 48 starters. How many of those were quality starters? You honestly think the ratio of quality starters from back then exceeds that of today?

    Give me a break.

    Not to mention the fact that hitters today often face over three "specialists" throughout a game....a starter, the set-up man, and a closer. These guys are all rested and don't experience near the fatigue pitchers from that era experienced.

    So the argument is that hitters of yesteryear faced more "quality" pitchers because of the watered down league of today?

    Whatever.
    But thats not to say that hitters of that era didnt face relievers. Relievers obviously werent used as often as today, but they were relevent.

    As far as pitchers being better then than they are now? I dont know. Not sure how we could ever tell, to be honest.
    GT = Chippered

    Brewers League Baseball
    Indianapolis Clowns

    Comment

    • SportsTop
      The Few. The Proud.
      • Jul 2003
      • 6716

      #107
      Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

      Originally posted by chippered
      But thats not to say that hitters of that era didnt face relievers. Relievers obviously werent used as often as today, but they were relevent.
      Where in my post did I say they didn't face relievers? But, it is a fact that starting pitchers went deeper into the game then they do today.

      I still don't see how people cannont understand that 8 teams (per league) * 10 pitchers per team = 80 possible pitchers a single batter could ever face.

      Today you have 15 teams (per league on average) * 11 pitchers (per team) = 161 possible pitchers (not to mention interleague play).

      That is more than double the arm angles, velocity, and tendencies to adjust to. I would hate to see what a player of Bonds' or Pujols' ability could do to pitching given that much familiarity.
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      • chippered
        MVP
        • Aug 2002
        • 1528

        #108
        Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

        Originally posted by Squint
        Where in my post did I say they didn't face relievers? But, it is a fact that starting pitchers went deeper into the game then they do today.

        I still don't see how people cannont understand that 8 teams (per league) * 10 pitchers per team = 80 possible pitchers a single batter could ever face.

        Today you have 15 teams (per league on average) * 11 pitchers (per team) = 161 possible pitchers (not to mention interleague play).

        That is more than double the arm angles, velocity, and tendencies to adjust to. I would hate to see what a player of Bonds' or Pujols' ability could do to pitching given that much familiarity.
        Not saying you said they didnt, I was just saying its not like they didnt. Not that you said this, but it seems that some think that pitchers of that era pitched until the game was over, and thats just not true.

        Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I just dont know how we can justify them. Sure you can assume that hitting in that era was easier, but how can you know for sure? Maybe pitchers of that era were more durable and had stronger arms. Maybe players overall were stronger, because of all of the manual labor done at a young age.

        Unfortunetly, we'll never know.
        GT = Chippered

        Brewers League Baseball
        Indianapolis Clowns

        Comment

        • SportsTop
          The Few. The Proud.
          • Jul 2003
          • 6716

          #109
          Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

          Originally posted by chippered
          Not saying you said they didnt, I was just saying its not like they didnt. Not that you said this, but it seems that some think that pitchers of that era pitched until the game was over, and thats just not true.

          Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I just dont know how we can justify them. Sure you can assume that hitting in that era was easier, but how can you know for sure? Maybe pitchers of that era were more durable and had stronger arms. Maybe players overall were stronger, because of all of the manual labor done at a young age.

          Unfortunetly, we'll never know.
          You honestly believe that while we, as humans, have been proven to be bigger, faster, stronger, and even smarter than generations past that somehow baseball players from that era just happen to be immune to that trend?

          I doubt it.
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          • Psyblast
            2023 National Champions
            • Jun 2003
            • 42584

            #110
            Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

            Originally posted by Knight165
            Try reading everything except what you want to Richard.


            Did you mean what I think you meant with this comment?

            Comment

            • chippered
              MVP
              • Aug 2002
              • 1528

              #111
              Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

              Originally posted by Squint
              You honestly believe that while we, as humans, have been proven to be bigger, faster, stronger, and even smarter than generations past that somehow baseball players from that era just happen to be immune to that trend?

              I doubt it.
              Naw, I can see your point. I do see players being stronger today than before. My point was that MAYBE pitchers were had stronger arms and were more durable in that era. Never said they were as fast or strong, or even as smart.

              As humans we obviously have evolved. I was just saying that perhaps pitchers of that generation had stronger arms. Children of that generation were required to do much more physical work that most children of this generation.

              I've heard many older players say that their arms were stronger than those of players today because they worked at a young age and were allowed to throw more often without the restriction of pitch counts.

              Overall, I'd say players of today are stonger than those of earlier eras. But my point is I believe that pitchers of those earlier eras had better conditioned arms for the sport. Just my opinion.
              GT = Chippered

              Brewers League Baseball
              Indianapolis Clowns

              Comment

              • Knight165
                *ll St*r
                • Feb 2003
                • 24964

                #112
                Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

                Originally posted by Psyblast
                Did you mean what I think you meant with this comment?
                That's his name, isn't it? ....(and you're good...not too many would have gotten that!)
                I'll take my time out like a big boy...


                M.K.
                Knight165
                All gave some. Some gave all. 343

                Comment

                • bkrich83
                  Has Been
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 71582

                  #113
                  Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

                  Originally posted by Knight165
                  That's his name, isn't it? ....(and you're good...not too many would have gotten that!)
                  I'll take my time out like a big boy...


                  M.K.
                  Knight165
                  No it's not my name. I don't know why you think it was so cleverly hidden. But since you've resorted to that, it must mean you've realized you can't make your point.
                  Tracking my NCAA Coach Career

                  Comment

                  • Knight165
                    *ll St*r
                    • Feb 2003
                    • 24964

                    #114
                    Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

                    Originally posted by bkrich83
                    No it's not my name. I don't know why you think it was so cleverly hidden. But since you've resorted to that, it must mean you've realized you can't make your point.
                    Right...says the guy who asked if I was a rocket scientist or brain surgeon.
                    Yeah. That must be it.
                    I bow to your greatness.

                    M.K.
                    Knight165
                    All gave some. Some gave all. 343

                    Comment

                    • bkrich83
                      Has Been
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 71582

                      #115
                      Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

                      Originally posted by Knight165
                      Yeah. That must be it.
                      I bow to your greatness.

                      M.K.
                      Knight165
                      In other words, I was correct. Good deflection attempt though.
                      Tracking my NCAA Coach Career

                      Comment

                      • Knight165
                        *ll St*r
                        • Feb 2003
                        • 24964

                        #116
                        Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

                        Originally posted by bkrich83
                        In other words, I was correct. Good deflection attempt though.
                        Last word.


                        M.K.
                        Knight165
                        All gave some. Some gave all. 343

                        Comment

                        • Tomahawk
                          MVP
                          • Feb 2005
                          • 1593

                          #117
                          Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

                          Originally posted by Squint
                          Where in my post did I say they didn't face relievers? But, it is a fact that starting pitchers went deeper into the game then they do today.

                          I still don't see how people cannont understand that 8 teams (per league) * 10 pitchers per team = 80 possible pitchers a single batter could ever face.

                          Today you have 15 teams (per league on average) * 11 pitchers (per team) = 161 possible pitchers (not to mention interleague play).

                          That is more than double the arm angles, velocity, and tendencies to adjust to. I would hate to see what a player of Bonds' or Pujols' ability could do to pitching given that much familiarity.
                          I guess that familiarity stuff only works in the hitter's favor and pitchers can't adjust or learn weaknesses.
                          • LETS GO RED SOX!!!
                          • LETS GO HOKIES!!!
                          • GO PACK GO!!!
                          • LETS GO BRUINS!!!

                          Comment

                          • SportsTop
                            The Few. The Proud.
                            • Jul 2003
                            • 6716

                            #118
                            Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

                            Originally posted by Tomahawk
                            I guess that familiarity stuff only works in the hitter's favor and pitchers can't adjust or learn weaknesses.
                            No one ever said that but it does favor the pitcher much more than the hitter.

                            Have you ever played baseball?

                            The pitcher's advantage decreases over time (there are always exceptions of course) with each new at bat a batter has against said pitcher.
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                            • Tomahawk
                              MVP
                              • Feb 2005
                              • 1593

                              #119
                              Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

                              Originally posted by Squint
                              No one ever said that but it does favor the pitcher much more than the hitter.

                              Have you ever played baseball?

                              The pitcher's advantage decreases over time (there are always exceptions of course) with each new at bat a batter has against said pitcher.
                              Hey, you were the one going on and on about how less teams meant the hitters would know all of the pitchers and what a huge advantage it would be for the hitter. It works both ways, pitchers can find weaknesses just as easy. I guess that advantage doesn't exist today as I pointed out earlier with detailed scouting reports, statistical analysis and video tape of each pitcher being available at the snap of a finger. Could Babe Ruth pop in a DVD of Walter Johnson's most recent starts to analyze him like Bonds and every major leaguer can do today?

                              Have you ever played baseball? Is that the best you can do or is that how lame you argument is getting?

                              However, just so you know........I have played, coached, and even worked for a minor league team.
                              • LETS GO RED SOX!!!
                              • LETS GO HOKIES!!!
                              • GO PACK GO!!!
                              • LETS GO BRUINS!!!

                              Comment

                              • SportsTop
                                The Few. The Proud.
                                • Jul 2003
                                • 6716

                                #120
                                Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

                                Originally posted by Tomahawk
                                Hey, you were the one going on and on about how less teams meant the hitters would know all of the pitchers and what a huge advantage it would be for the hitter. It works both ways, pitchers can find weaknesses just as easy. I guess that advantage doesn't exist today as I pointed out earlier with detailed scouting reports, statistical analysis and video tape of each pitcher being available at the snap of a finger. Could Babe Ruth pop in a DVD of Walter Johnson's most recent starts to analyze him like Bonds and every major leaguer can do today?

                                Have you ever played baseball? Is that the best you can do or is that how lame you argument is getting?

                                However, just so you know........I have played, coached, and even worked for a minor league team.
                                Your whole DVD point is a wash because it applies to both sides so I'll just ignore it.

                                I was asking a serious question. If you've been around the game as much as you claim then you'd know hitters have the upper hand against pitchers as their at bats against them increase.
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