Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

[Tomahawk]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Your whole DVD point is a wash because it applies to both sides so I'll just ignore it.

I was asking a serious question. If you've been around the game as much as you claim then you'd know hitters have the upper hand against pitchers as their at bats against them increase.

If the DVD point is a wash because it applies to both sides then isn't the familiarity point a wash, too. Does it not apply to both sides?

Also, if hitters have the upper hand as you claim as they get more at bats against the same pitchers then why wasn't everyone hitting over .400 back when Ruth and Cobb played. I mean they only had to learn half as many pitchers as compared today.

Or maybe you're wrong and pitchers learn hitters just as well as hitters learn pitchers the more time they face them? I mean all hitters do have weaknesses no matter how good they might be and pitchers do have some pitches that are hard to hit no matter how many times you have seen it.

Or maybe teams learn to position their defensive players in areas where hitters are most likely to hit the ball which gives pitchers an added advantage?

[Bravesfan47]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

You seem to be under the impression throwing more pitch types makes you a more effective or better pitcher. It doesn't. Don't have to look any further than Ariel Prieto to prove that point.

Does this mean that pitchers back then didn't throw good sliders, curves ect. very well? Does it mean that pitchers now do? I don't see how this fits into the argument about what pitchers throw....Plenty of pitchers now a days throw crappy off speed and breaking pitches and i'd imagine that back then some pitchers threw them better then others. Mute point.


[/QUOTE] Your whole DVD point is a wash because it applies to both sides so I'll just ignore it.

I was asking a serious question. If you've been around the game as much as you claim then you'd know hitters have the upper hand against pitchers as their at bats against them increase.[/QUOTE]

I think his point was that players back then didn't have any DVD"S or scouting reports to work with. Yea you saw guys more often, but they see you more often to. And its a 2 way street in regards to figuring out a hitters and pitchers weakness. Pitchers have every chance to figure out hitters weak spots in their swings and to see what type of pitches cause them to struggle.
And the other way works to. Hitters can pick up on where pitchers like to throw certain pitches and when....Its all about adjustments on both sides....Neither side has any advantage just from seeing each other more.

"My point was that MAYBE pitchers were had stronger arms and were more durable in that era."

Well, if you throw more often and for longer periods of time your gonna build up more arm strength. Pitchers pitched more then so they built up more arm strength.....Now a days pitchers are conditioned for less innings.

Anyway guys, no need to start insulting each other.....We'll never really know who's better then who....Just trying to back up opinions thats all.

[chippered]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Anyway guys, no need to start insulting each other.....We'll never really know who's better then who....Just trying to back up opinions thats all.

Oh, yeah. Not trying at all to offend anyone. Thats one of the reasons I dont post to often. I'm always afraid that if I disagree with someone, they may think I have a problem with them, which is far from the truth. I really enjoy the boards and "debating" with guys about whatever, so long as you all know your my homies

[SportsTop]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

If the DVD point is a wash because it applies to both sides then isn't the familiarity point a wash, too. Does it not apply to both sides?

Also, if hitters have the upper hand as you claim as they get more at bats against the same pitchers then why wasn't everyone hitting over .400 back when Ruth and Cobb played. I mean they only had to learn half as many pitchers as compared today.

Or maybe you're wrong and pitchers learn hitters just as well as hitters learn pitchers the more time they face them? I mean all hitters do have weaknesses no matter how good they might be and pitchers do have some pitches that are hard to hit no matter how many times you have seen it.

Or maybe teams learn to position their defensive players in areas where hitters are most likely to hit the ball which gives pitchers an added advantage?

It's obvious you have your opinion and I have mine. You aren't going to convince me that pitchers of that era were better then the pitchers of today. We could argue that gloves, field conditions, and numerous other factors contributed to higher batting averages as well.

The simple fact is that batters faced pitchers more times per year back then and pitchers were likely a lot more fatigued post all-star break then they are today.

There's also no way you can tell me that a batter of today having to face a starter, set-up man, and closer all throwing different pitches at varying speeds and different arm angles has it "easier" than batters of that era.

[Gary Armida]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

So, in an effort to get this great thread topic back on track here's my all-time position players and the all-time players in my lifetime.

All-Time (In no particular order)
1. Willie Mays
2. Honus Wagner
3. Babe Ruth
4. Ty Cobb
5. Ted Williams

There are a million others, but I am happy with that list for now.

Now, onto the 1975 and later all-time position players (In no particular order)
1. Alex Rodriguez (I hate him, but it's true)
2. Ken Griffey Jr.
3. Vladimir Guerrero
4. Tony Gwynn
5. George Brett and Michael Jack Schmidt

I really wanted to put Don Mattingly on this list as he was the best player in baseball from 1984-1988, bar none. Unfortunately, injuries robbed him of that status.

[bkrich83]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

So, in an effort to get this great thread topic back on track here's my all-time position players and the all-time players in my lifetime.

All-Time (In no particular order)
1. Willie Mays
2. Honus Wagner
3. Babe Ruth
4. Ty Cobb
5. Ted Williams

There are a million others, but I am happy with that list for now.

Now, onto the 1975 and later all-time position players (In no particular order)
1. Alex Rodriguez (I hate him, but it's true)
2. Ken Griffey Jr.
3. Vladimir Guerrero
4. Tony Gwynn
5. George Brett and Michael Jack Schmidt

I really wanted to put Don Mattingly on this list as he was the best player in baseball from 1984-1988, bar none. Unfortunately, injuries robbed him of that status.

And unfortunately it was a pretty severe and chronic back injury for Mattingly. If he had not gotten hurt, who knows what kind of numbers he would have ended up with.

[Coug00]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Now, onto the 1975 and later all-time position players (In no particular order)
1. Alex Rodriguez (I hate him, but it's true)
2. Ken Griffey Jr.
3. Vladimir Guerrero
4. Tony Gwynn
5. George Brett and Michael Jack Schmidt

I really wanted to put Don Mattingly on this list as he was the best player in baseball from 1984-1988, bar none. Unfortunately, injuries robbed him of that status.

Good list. Another guy in the same boat as Mattingly is Edgar Martinez. Leg injuries caused him to miss a lot of time and forced him to DH full time in '95. I wouldn't be surprised if people scoff at adding a DH to the list, but statistically Edgar was the best right handed hitter of the 90's (and he did play the field for the first 8.5 years of his career).

He's one of 15 players in MLB history to finish their careers with an AVG over .300, OBP over .400, and SLG over .500. 13 are Hall of Famers...Edgar and Shoeless Joe Jackson are the two who aren't.

The other 13 are Ty Cobb, Stan Musial, Tris Speaker, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Harry Heilmann, Ted Williams, Ed Delahanty, Dan Brouthers, and Hank Greenberg.

[Gary Armida]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

You know who I just realized that I shortchanged on my 1975 list---Rickey Henderson. For a while (82-88+), there was not a more dominant player in the game than him. I guess if I had to take someone off, it would be Brett/Schmidt. IDK, I'm sure nine million more will come up.

[chippered]

Re: Five Greatest Position Players of All Time

Good list. Another guy in the same boat as Mattingly is Edgar Martinez. Leg injuries caused him to miss a lot of time and forced him to DH full time in '95. I wouldn't be surprised if people scoff at adding a DH to the list, but statistically Edgar was the best right handed hitter of the 90's (and he did play the field for the first 8.5 years of his career).

He's one of 15 players in MLB history to finish their careers with an AVG over .300, OBP over .400, and SLG over .500. 13 are Hall of Famers...Edgar and Shoeless Joe Jackson are the two who aren't.

The other 13 are Ty Cobb, Stan Musial, Tris Speaker, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Harry Heilmann, Ted Williams, Ed Delahanty, Dan Brouthers, and Hank Greenberg.

Thats damn impressive!