Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

[mgoblue]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

Gambling is bad if you're throwing games but there has been nothing shown that would suggest that he was doing that so I don't see the big deal.

That's my thought too...I just don't know enough details on Rose to say this for sure....I definitely think he's different than someone like Shoeless Joe Jackson...He obviously threw games, i think Rose was just betting (wasn't he?)

[funky_chicken]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

If Rose was betting on games and trying to throw games then he deserves to not be allowed in the HOF. From all the things I have read Rose never bet against his team and always bet for his team to win. IMO he should be in the HOF. His betting on baseball did not result in games being thrown and does not change the fact he is the all time hit king.

[Sully]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

I don't get it. Some folks are willing to give Bonds a free pass because he was a HOF player before he took steroids. Well, wasn't Rose a HOF player long before he bet on baseball?

[Skerik]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

Betting for/against your own team as a player/manager is the absolute worst thing anyone in MLB could do to their sport. It is the one thing no sport can tolerate or be soft with. I wouldn't put Bonds/Clemens/McGwire in the Hall. But I would definitely put them in before Rose.

The thing is, it's the Baseball Hall of Fame. A player gets into the Baseball HOF based upon the stats they put up on a baseball field. Rose, so far as we know, put up his stats without the aid of steroids. Which is more than you can say for Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and the rest of those guys. And the stats are what's getting them into the HOF. They're going into the HOF as baseball players - who cares what they did or didn't do outside of that capacity.

It's not the Life HOF, it's the Baseball HOF and these guys are being inducted as baseball players. While Rose's gambling may have been a more egregious offense against the integrity of the game (which is also debatable), it in no way had any effect on his career as a baseball player. So he should be in, before guys who used performance enhancers to put up inflated numbers. The only thing that should matter in this argument are the numbers. And someone who put up HOF caliber numbers without steroids should get in before people that used drugs.

[Brandon13]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

The thing is, it's the Baseball Hall of Fame. A player gets into the Baseball HOF based upon the stats they put up on a baseball field. Rose, so far as we know, put up his stats without the aid of steroids. Which is more than you can say for Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and the rest of those guys. And the stats are what's getting them into the HOF. They're going into the HOF as baseball players - who cares what they did or didn't do outside of that capacity.

It's not the Life HOF, it's the Baseball HOF and these guys are being inducted as baseball players. While Rose's gambling may have been a more egregious offense against the integrity of the game (which is also debatable), it in no way had any effect on his career as a baseball player. So he should be in, before guys who used performance enhancers to put up inflated numbers. The only thing that should matter in this argument are the numbers. And someone who put up HOF caliber numbers without steroids should get in before people that used drugs.

Shoeless Joe Jackson should be let in too then. I don't have a problem with the HOF putting Rose in, just as long as he's not reinstated into baseball.

As I said before, I would either let all HOF worthy players from the Steroid Era in or I wouldn't let any of them in. I don't care whether or not a player was HOF worthy before he supposedly started using PEDs because that's just a guessing game, and for the most part it's a guessing game on whether or not a player used PEDs period. PED use was/is too widespread in the Steroid Era to really know who used and who didn't. Guys like Pudge Rodriguez who have had rumors but nothings been proven, what do you do with them? The only thing that makes sense to me is to either let them all in or keep them all out. Or you could create a separate HOF, I guess, but I don't like that idea.

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

The thing is, it's the Baseball Hall of Fame. A player gets into the Baseball HOF based upon the stats they put up on a baseball field. Rose, so far as we know, put up his stats without the aid of steroids. Which is more than you can say for Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and the rest of those guys. And the stats are what's getting them into the HOF. They're going into the HOF as baseball players - who cares what they did or didn't do outside of that capacity.

It's not the Life HOF, it's the Baseball HOF and these guys are being inducted as baseball players. While Rose's gambling may have been a more egregious offense against the integrity of the game (which is also debatable), it in no way had any effect on his career as a baseball player. So he should be in, before guys who used performance enhancers to put up inflated numbers. The only thing that should matter in this argument are the numbers. And someone who put up HOF caliber numbers without steroids should get in before people that used drugs.

Ask yourself this: What if the Mitchell report said 80+ players were found to have bet on games they played in? Even the most staunch Pete Rose supporter would have to admit that would be a much bigger disaster for the sport than 200+ steroid users. THAT'S why Pete Rose should never be allowed in the Hall or baseball, period.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

Ask yourself this: What if the Mitchell report said 80+ players were found to have bet on games they played in? Even the most staunch Pete Rose supporter would have to admit that would be a much bigger disaster for the sport than 200+ steroid users. THAT'S why Pete Rose should never be allowed in the Hall or baseball, period.

Exactly! There's an enormous difference between cheating to gain a competitive advantage and betting on a game. Steroids suck, but at least you know they're always playing to win. You lose that crucial facet of the game when you bring betting into play.

[CMH]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

Yea, I agree with that.

If we found out that 80+ players were betting on the game and possibly fixing the results of said game I think that would be far more detrimental to the game of baseball than a bunch of players taking performance enhancers.

Performance enhancers, as you can see by looking at the names, does not automatically make you a better player.

Betting on a game and changing it's outcome is far more severe.

[jmood88]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

Exactly! There's an enormous difference between cheating to gain a competitive advantage and betting on a game. Steroids suck, but at least you know they're always playing to win. You lose that crucial facet of the game when you bring betting into play.

Where has it been shown that he was betting on his teams to lose or wasn't playing to win?

[Skerik]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

Ask yourself this: What if the Mitchell report said 80+ players were found to have bet on games they played in? Even the most staunch Pete Rose supporter would have to admit that would be a much bigger disaster for the sport than 200+ steroid users. THAT'S why Pete Rose should never be allowed in the Hall or baseball, period.

Then those players shouldn't get in as players. If they bet while they were managers, they shouldn't get in as managers. If they bet as circus clowns, they shouldn't get in as circus clowns. Etc, etc, etc. He's going into the HOF as a baseball player - nothing more and nothing less. He has more hits than anyone else who played baseball. What he did when his playing days were over is of no concern to me, because he was a great baseball player.

[Blzer]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

I'm late on this topic, and only read the title and the first few words, but steroids and betting are two different issues completely. One shouldn't depend on the other.

But IMO Rose deserves to be in regardless.

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

Then those players shouldn't get in as players. If they bet while they were managers, they shouldn't get in as managers. If they bet as circus clowns, they shouldn't get in as circus clowns. Etc, etc, etc. He's going into the HOF as a baseball player - nothing more and nothing less. He has more hits than anyone else who played baseball. What he did when his playing days were over is of no concern to me, because he was a great baseball player.

Can you seperate the player from the man? Can you seperate the manager from the man? I'm sorry, but the offense so is egregiously heinous to the sport's reputation, it demands the stiffest penalty the league can offer, death. It can not be tolerated in even the smallest sense. The punishment must be so severe that no one would ever dare consider it. The sport cannot afford sympathy for a man who treated its integrity w/such disdain.

& jmood, I don't know if anyone knows for a fact if Rose only bet for the Reds to win. But it doesn't matter, IMO. Team sports cannot allow even the doubt to creep into the fan's mind. We see how damaging it has been to the NBA, even though everyone in sports media wants to sweep Donaghey under the rug. It has given real fuel for the conspiratists, admittedly such as myself, to burn the NBA's reputation w/.

[Skerik]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

Can you seperate the player from the man?

That's what the HOF is all about. Ever heard of Ty Cobb? There are scores of guys in the HOF whose lives as men I don't approve of. But so what. They put up numbers between the lines on the field and that's what counts. Rose has already received his baseball death - by being banned from participation in the sport. Hell, put that on his HOF plaque if you want, that he received a lifetime ban from the game for his transgressions. But all that should matter for his inclusion in the baseball HOF is what he did on the baseball field.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

That's what the HOF is all about. Ever heard of Ty Cobb? There are scores of guys in the HOF whose lives as men I don't approve of. But so what. They put up numbers between the lines on the field and that's what counts. Rose has already received his baseball death - by being banned from participation in the sport. Hell, put that on his HOF plaque if you want, that he received a lifetime ban from the game for his transgressions. But all that should matter for his inclusion in the baseball HOF is what he did on the baseball field.

I wasn't aware that Cobb broke the game's cardinal rule. We're not talking about a man's character. We're talking about how his actions effected the game.

And jmood, that's completely irrelevant.

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

That's what the HOF is all about. Ever heard of Ty Cobb? There are scores of guys in the HOF whose lives as men I don't approve of. But so what. They put up numbers between the lines on the field and that's what counts. Rose has already received his baseball death - by being banned from participation in the sport. Hell, put that on his HOF plaque if you want, that he received a lifetime ban from the game for his transgressions. But all that should matter for his inclusion in the baseball HOF is what he did on the baseball field.

I don't think Cobb should be in. But he got put in when blacks were still banned. So the people who voted him in were probably bigots as Cobb was.

But once more, the crime is too damaging to the sport to be forgiven. And Pete has done so much to damage his rep after his banishment, I don't think he'd get in even if he were elgible. That's how horrific his actions were. Steroid use is in no way, shape or form comparable as a crime to gambling when it comes to sport.