Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

I think most of you are missing the point.

The rule was in place before Rose was caught.

A rule, whether you agree with it or not, should not be abandoned because of who the player is/was.

If Rose had the Hall credentials of, say, a borderline HOFer like Andre Dawson or Ron Santo, would this argument be brought up? Probably, but not by very many people.

But, because the guy happened to be a great player (nevermind the fact that he was adored by fans off the field), people wish to change the rules for him. It shouldn't work like that people.

Agreed.

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

I know you've made your argument that Rose's betting compromised the integrity of the game, and I still don't believe it. That's just my personal opinion. I respect your argument, I respect your position on the matter and cane understand it, but I don't agree with Rose's actions affecting the integrity of the game more than any of the players who used steroids. That's just my opinion.

Therein lies the real reason people. People cannot offer any sound reason why steroids should be viewed as worse. They just want to believe it. If Rose was found to be juiced up & Bonds was the one betting, we wouldn't have started this thread, let alone gotten multiple pages. Take the players out of the equation & just look @ the crime. Steroid use stains the player, gambling stains the entire league.

[wang_chi7]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

There was a little bit of talk over Ty Cobb and how he shouldn't be in the Hall. He was an amazing player, but a terrible man. So what? When it comes to the hall it shouldn't matter what the man's character was like. Now there are whispers that he had thrown games, but they were only whispers and not proven; if it were true then kick him out.

Now the Pete Rose thing. Some of us need a history lesson. Baseball has had one rule, one, that sits above all others: don't bet on the game. The 1919 Black Sox scandal almost killed the game, the war already hurt attendance (and generally following of the game) for the last few years, Babe Ruth had yet to break out as a hitter, and there had been minor controversies in '08, '14, '17, '18 involving fixing games. The Black Sox scandal crippled the game, and quite likely if it weren't for George Herman Ruth the game would have never recovered. Kenesaw Mountain Landis was the commish at the time, a very strong individual who made many decisions, while making enemies with both the players and owners, that were for the betterment of the game; he did what he had to do, ban the 8 guys found to be involved. This even included Buck Weaver, who didn't even take a bribe but did know of the situation. The game almost was killed off and from then on out there has been a sign in every locker room stating thou shalt not bet on baseball or be banned for life. Everybody who has played the game for the last 90 years has understood this cardinal rule; you break it, get out.

70 years later Rose was found to have bet on 52 Reds games in 1987. He broke the cardinal rule, knew that there is absolutely no leniency on the issue and that it was the death sentence. It was a big no-no, even if he didn't take a dive. The game would not, and could not take it lightly because of the history. He had to eat his medicine and say goodbye to the game. I won't even get into how only betting on 52 games can jeopardize the other games, which isn't exactly throwing games but in the same ballpark.

Now steroids. They have been a banned substance in the United States since the 1970's I believe (I could be off on that, but they have been illegal for a while now.) They were also banned in baseball in 1991, though no testing was started for years; nonetheless they were illegal in the game. While its not a cardinal rule that guarantees the death penalty, it is a serious crime against the sport. It hurts the game because people start to view it as fake in outcome, becoming skeptical of who is clean and who is not. Some may argue that it only effects the individual user, but it brings the entire sport into doubt. That being said, baseball hasn't come close to death because of drugs; it almost died from betting scandals though. Because of this, betting needs to be looked at as the more serious crime.

[jake44np]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

There was a little bit of talk over Ty Cobb and how he shouldn't be in the Hall. He was an amazing player, but a terrible man. So what? When it comes to the hall it shouldn't matter what the man's character was like. Now there are whispers that he had thrown games, but they were only whispers and not proven; if it were true then kick him out.

Now the Pete Rose thing. Some of us need a history lesson. Baseball has had one rule, one, that sits above all others: don't bet on the game. The 1919 Black Sox scandal almost killed the game, the war already hurt attendance (and generally following of the game) for the last few years, Babe Ruth had yet to break out as a hitter, and there had been minor controversies in '08, '14, '17, '18 involving fixing games. The Black Sox scandal crippled the game, and quite likely if it weren't for George Herman Ruth the game would have never recovered. Kenesaw Mountain Landis was the commish at the time, a very strong individual who made many decisions, while making enemies with both the players and owners, that were for the betterment of the game; he did what he had to do, ban the 8 guys found to be involved. This even included Buck Weaver, who didn't even take a bribe but did know of the situation. The game almost was killed off and from then on out there has been a sign in every locker room stating thou shalt not bet on baseball or be banned for life. Everybody who has played the game for the last 90 years has understood this cardinal rule; you break it, get out.

70 years later Rose was found to have bet on 52 Reds games in 1987. He broke the cardinal rule, knew that there is absolutely no leniency on the issue and that it was the death sentence. It was a big no-no, even if he didn't take a dive. The game would not, and could not take it lightly because of the history. He had to eat his medicine and say goodbye to the game. I won't even get into how only betting on 52 games can jeopardize the other games, which isn't exactly throwing games but in the same ballpark.

Now steroids. They have been a banned substance in the United States since the 1970's I believe (I could be off on that, but they have been illegal for a while now.) They were also banned in baseball in 1991, though no testing was started for years; nonetheless they were illegal in the game. While its not a cardinal rule that guarantees the death penalty, it is a serious crime against the sport. It hurts the game because people start to view it as fake in outcome, becoming skeptical of who is clean and who is not. Some may argue that it only effects the individual user, but it brings the entire sport into doubt. That being said, baseball hasn't come close to death because of drugs; it almost died from betting scandals though. Because of this, betting needs to be looked at as the more serious crime.

Unlike the other pro sports hall of fames baseball's does take into account of the players character. They dont want shady characters in the baseball hall of fame.

[roadman]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

A few quotes from John Dowd, eight years ago.

When you place a bet on your team, you are then putting your financial interest ahead of your team's interest," says John Dowd, the former special counsel to the baseball commissioner.

"One, it's a conflict of interest, and two, it creates enormous debt. In this case, we had the manager of the Cincinnati Reds indebted to organized crime in New York for $500,000 while he was managing the team. The game cannot tolerate such leverage on a player, or a manager, or anybody who participates in the game. It just can't permit it."

A quote that some of you are arguing from one of his relievers, Norm Charleton.

"If I'm betting just to win and I'm managing in such a manner that we win, then it's not really jeopardizing the integrity of the game."

Faye Vincent quote:

"Don't forget, he didn't bet every day and so when he didn't bet, you think the bookie didn't understand what was going on?" said Vincent.

"I mean, suppose the manager of the Reds says, 'I'm not betting today.' What does that tell you?"

John Dowd quote:

It doesn't matter whether you influence the game," Dowd argues. "It doesn't matter whether you bet for or against. You have then placed the integrity of the game aside and that's why we almost lost the game of baseball in 1920 when the Chicago White Sox threw the World Series in Cincinnati."

Also, don't forget Rose was a Player/Manager for 2 plus seasons before he retired as a player.

[jim416]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

"It doesn't matter whether you bet for or against. You have then placed the integrity of the game aside and that's why we almost lost the game of baseball in 1920 when the Chicago White Sox threw the World Series in Cincinnati."

With honesty hard to find these days I agree completely with this sentiment. Pete Rose is an idividual. The game is our national past time. I love this game, as screwed up as it's becoming. No Pete Rose in the Hall.

[wang_chi7]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

A few quotes from John Dowd, eight years ago.

When you place a bet on your team, you are then putting your financial interest ahead of your team's interest," says John Dowd, the former special counsel to the baseball commissioner.

"One, it's a conflict of interest, and two, it creates enormous debt. In this case, we had the manager of the Cincinnati Reds indebted to organized crime in New York for $500,000 while he was managing the team. The game cannot tolerate such leverage on a player, or a manager, or anybody who participates in the game. It just can't permit it."

A quote that some of you are arguing from one of his relievers, Norm Charleton.

"If I'm betting just to win and I'm managing in such a manner that we win, then it's not really jeopardizing the integrity of the game."

Faye Vincent quote:

"Don't forget, he didn't bet every day and so when he didn't bet, you think the bookie didn't understand what was going on?" said Vincent.

"I mean, suppose the manager of the Reds says, 'I'm not betting today.' What does that tell you?"

John Dowd quote:

It doesn't matter whether you influence the game," Dowd argues. "It doesn't matter whether you bet for or against. You have then placed the integrity of the game aside and that's why we almost lost the game of baseball in 1920 when the Chicago White Sox threw the World Series in Cincinnati."

Also, don't forget Rose was a Player/Manager for 2 plus seasons before he retired as a player.

Thanks for the info, I especially found the quote on organized crime interesting as I hadn't even thought of it.

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Ok, NOW does Pete Rose get in?

Glad Pete Rose weighed in on the matter. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3160548
Kind of like the rapist calling the pedophile a pervert.

I also like how @ the end he all but said he would have taken steroids too if he could have.