Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

[imapotato]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

Learning sabermetrics >>> coming off as Joe Morgan.

Seriously, if you can't even take the time to figure out the concepts behind UZR/FIP/VORP, etc., then it's pointless even debating this with you.

UZR is basically how good a player's range is.
FIP determines how good a pitcher is by only looking at the things he controls.
VORP measures the offensive value of a player.

I imagine you're somewhat educated, so these concepts shouldn't be too difficult to grasp. I wasn't really into sabermetrics until a year ago and it didn't take me that long to understand or be intrigued by them.

Shed the ignorance. Don't eschew things just because they appear to be "ZOMG SCARY AND WEIRD!!!!" The day that baseball fans realize that sabermetrics aren't only the stuff of geeks will be a great day for baseball.

Man, do you eat smugness for breakfast? Do you talk to people like that face to face? If so, how many women have beaten you up for doing so?

Those are all flawed

VORP incorrectly calculates positional adjustments and underestimates
the impact of walks (ironically, it has been noted) and doubles.
Nor does it take base running and steals into account

UZR and any other fielding metric cannot take into account players next to the player involved, so a good SS looks bad when he gets a great fielding 2b to play besides.

I was thginking of going on, but with the tone of your posts, it be like convincing Jehovah Witnessess that their religion is oppresive and misguided or the followers of David Koresh that he wasn't Jesus

[CMH]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

"Who is the best manager in the NL out of the current playoff teams?

Joe Morgan: A few years ago, I wrote a book and listed my top 5 managers: Dusty Baker, Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, Tony LaRusa and I think the fifth was Cito Gaston. So, in the NL, Baker, Cox and Torre are the best managers.

Torre's team is currently in 4th place.

This is a tough one for me to argue, really.

I don't think Joe Girardi is a great manager yet his team is either in first place or second place depending on how the Rays and Yankees flip it right now.

Mike Scocia could be considered a good manager, yet his team wouldn't make the playoffs right now.

Is Joe Torre overrated for his years in New York? Probably. But, I don't think I'd use standings as a measure of success. As potato also mentioned, Dusty Baker has his team in first place and I think many of us have been arguing that he isn't a good manager.

[CMH]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

Those are all flawed

This war makes zero sense to me, actually.

Everything is flawed in its own right. I don't agree with anyone that says eyes don't tell some of the story and only stats do, just as I don't agree with anyone that thinks stats (whether advanced or not) don't mean a thing while eyes or traditional stats do.

Everything should work together. No one philosophy should be the end all of any baseball conversation.

There are guys that look like good ballplayers that just aren't. But there are also guys that have good numbers that are pure flukes.

None of the statistics or eye tests are going to prove one or the other. Together they can help see what makes sense.

But that's why I don't really get into these discussions anymore. It seems like most people want to choose one side and either ignore or insult the other.

[ryan36]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

Dusty Baker has been to a world series...I don't think he handles pitching staffs well. I think Bryan Price in Cincy has helped a LOT. He's not a total idiot. His career is similar to Lou Piniella's who's my favorite, except Lou won one in 1990.

Joe Torre had little success before New York, but who had had any there in the previous years?

I don't think Cito Gaston does anything more then lets his players play, but I'm not that close to the situation.

Bobby Cox is a great manager...still can't figure out how he didn't win more than one.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

Man, do you eat smugness for breakfast? Do you talk to people like that face to face? If so, how many women have beaten you up for doing so?

Those are all flawed

VORP incorrectly calculates positional adjustments and underestimates
the impact of walks (ironically, it has been noted) and doubles.
Nor does it take base running and steals into account

UZR and any other fielding metric cannot take into account players next to the player involved, so a good SS looks bad when he gets a great fielding 2b to play besides.

I was thginking of going on, but with the tone of your posts, it be like convincing Jehovah Witnessess that their religion is oppresive and misguided or the followers of David Koresh that he wasn't Jesus

Way to completely ignore the context of that post, which came after a notorious anti-SABR poster decided to bash sabermetrics (although we later came to a respectful understanding).

Other than that, this is a fantastic display of ohpoormeism

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

I don't know what the biggest turnoff is

1) I played in the minors, so I know baseball
2) The hubris and smugness of sabergeeks
3) The cult mentality of reading something on one site so it MUST be true

I like being Joe Blow

oh and the moron that this thread is about, has his team in first place

That was supposed to be completely facetious, but again, GJ ignoring context.

Baseball managers are also completely replaceable, so I don't know how that mitigates the fact that Baker is an idiot. Baker is once again proving that there's not a high degree of correlation between having a competent baseball manager and winning games.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

VORP incorrectly calculates positional adjustments and underestimates
the impact of walks (ironically, it has been noted) and doubles.
Nor does it take base running and steals into account

UZR and any other fielding metric cannot take into account players next to the player involved, so a good SS looks bad when he gets a great fielding 2b to play besides.

I'm not going to let you get away with this straw man. I'm well-aware of the flaws of VORP, FIP, and UZR, but they're a hell of a lot better at measuring a player's offensive value, pitching ability, and defense respectively than all of the traditional stats that are often regurgitated.

Just because I strongly believe in the validity of sabermetrics doesn't mean I find them to be all-encompassing. VORP doesn't account for defense, FIP doesn't adjust for batted ball or home run rates, and UZR is prone to wild fluctuations, doesn't account for where the ball was hit and to which part of the field, and doesn't measure first basemen very well.

All of them are still among the best statistics around though. Note the word statistics as well. I'm not going to arbitrarily use FIP to find out whether or not Player A is a better pitcher than Player B. I'm going to want to take a look at tRA, xFIP, pitcher's WAR (which will account for innings pitched), ERA+, WHIP, K/BB ratio, etc.

[ryan36]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

That was supposed to be completely facetious, but again, GJ ignoring context.

Baseball managers are also completely replaceable, so I don't know how that mitigates the fact that Baker is an idiot. Baker is once again proving that there's not a high degree of correlation between having a competent baseball manager and winning games.

If there isn't, then how do you explain manager who repeat success over several teams?

...and if winning doesn't make you competent, what does? That's exactly how I define competent. If you're among the more successful in the stat that your judged on, how can you still be considered incompetent?

[OSUFan_88]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

I don't know what the biggest turnoff is

1) I played in the minors, so I know baseball
2) The hubris and smugness of sabergeeks
3) The cult mentality of reading something on one site so it MUST be true

I like being Joe Blow

oh and the moron that this thread is about, has his team in first place

So Sabergeeks are hubris and smug, but you are not?

Okay.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

So Sabergeeks are hubris and smug, but you are not?

Okay.

The level of irony is just astounding.

I particularly liked the part where my toughness was questioned by an anonymous internet poster. LOL.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

I wasn't even trying to come off as smug either.

The post in question was a pretty appropriate response to a notorious anti-sabermetrics troll.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

We don't have a thread for announcers who actually say good stuff, but tonight during the Mariners/Texas game the announcers were breaking down the best fielding SS in the AL and they were using UZR, plays made out of zone, and adjusted zone rating. They even went so far as to explain in general what each one was...man, I wondered what world I was in that this was getting play on a baseball broadcast!

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

I wasn't even trying to come off as smug either.

The post in question was a pretty appropriate response to a notorious anti-sabermetrics troll.

You may not want to be coming off as smug, but like most sabermetricians posting anywhere, the dismissal of an "obsolete" stat or a "educate yourself" post may turn off other people.

Gotta love the internet, where your post is at the mercy of interpretation at the other end.

And for those who hate sabermetrics, you don't need to embrace them. I don't, but I respect the hell out of them when they can predict downfalls or improvements just based on a couple of stats.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

It's only the first inning, but we already have McCarver calling Lackey "gritty" and a "fierce competitor". Yup, that's the best way to describe him. It seems like these terms are always reserved for players who are marginal.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Dusty Baker (and other assorted morons)

I missed this nugget in last week's Joe Chat.

"For example, I once thought that there weren't enough African-American managers in the game. I went and talked to the commissioner and he agreed with me. They then put in a rule that whenever there was an opening, they had to interview an African-American for the job."

Joe Morgan, the man responsible for increasing the ranks of black managers in MLB. I believe I just found the definition of smug.