Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

[JBH3]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

Why?

For a multitude of reasons, but to keep it short and sweet:

1. It's illegal.
2. It's only use is medicinal, not for performance enhancing.
3. It's still and will always be considered cheating NOW and throughout history, given this era, because not everyone is willing to sacrifice their body for glory/numbers.
4. It's not just "steroids", which James put so bluntly but...blood doping, HGH, and other forms which of performance enhancing.
5. Integrity...records being made and broken w/ more than just the athletes genuine gift.

[Freelance]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

No, ten years ago we all cared even less. The olympics were the only ones to make a big deal out of roids and that was bc they really do all they can to make sure all athletes are on an even playing field, and always have. Remember it was 2003 when this anonymous test happened. In 1999 players were probably buying roids from batting coaches.

Integrity is gone. We are a soul-less society.

[JBH3]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

Integrity is gone. We are a soul-less society.

hmmm...to a degree...It's gone from the players who still use, who lie and act as if they had no idea, but not from the sport itself.

Baseball is trying to maintain -OR- get back it's integrity w/ testing and suspensions.

...and as wwharton has pointed out the fact that there's testing now when there wasn't a decade ago shows that integrity is trying to be maintained...at least now.

[CMH]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

I never gathered any racial undertones or otherwise from that post you speak of, but rather just a clear distinction of ethnicity -- whatever you'd want to deem it.

I didn't either.

"Access"...changes everything. In one country it's illegal, in another accepted, that changes the mindset of anyone wanting to use it.

We are talking about the same thing. This is exactly what I said.

"Kid's in American shelters" only fits the unfortunate situation both would be in. It doesn't change the fact that regardless of social-class kids in the DR and other carib-latin countries are groomed for baseball; not the case here in the U.S.A.

I realize that, and that's the point. If scouts were grooming them and they looked for kids in shelters then those kids would have the same incentive as a Dominican living poorly. Take steroids and increase your chances of providing for yourself and your family.

Obviously, those kids aren't being groomed so you go to the place where they are and where the incentive is high.

We're talking about the same thing here, man.

[CMH]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

For a multitude of reasons, but to keep it short and sweet:

1. It's illegal.
2. It's only use is medicinal, not for performance enhancing.
3. It's still and will always be considered cheating NOW and throughout history, given this era, because not everyone is willing to sacrifice their body for glory/numbers.
4. It's not just "steroids", which James put so bluntly but...blood doping, HGH, and other forms which of performance enhancing.
5. Integrity...records being made and broken w/ more than just the athletes genuine gift.

But Bill James or whoever it might have been wasn't talking about baseball; they were talking about regular people.

[CMH]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

Bronson Arroyo doing the right thing and stating that he might be on the list.

I'm sure someone will say that he is blaming andro on possible steroids, but either way, he's going out of his way to admit that it's possible he did them. That's better than acting like Ortiz.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4368436

[SPTO]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

Bronson Arroyo doing the right thing and stating that he might be on the list.

I'm sure someone will say that he is blaming andro on possible steroids, but either way, he's going out of his way to admit that it's possible he did them. That's better than acting like Ortiz.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4368436

Wow someone actually standing up without pressure to admit something like that. I think Arroyo is a crap pitcher but I gotta give him respect for this.

[wwharton]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

Integrity is gone. We are a soul-less society.

You said 10 years ago this would be a big deal and now we don't care. If you want to call it integrity then you'd have to admit that we have more integrity now (testing and actually punishing players caught) than was the case 10 years ago.

Either way, the "witch hunt" as ZB9 puts it (I agree 100%) shows less integrity as human beings than anything. The mob mentality brings to light how much like sheep we are... always have been but this makes it much too clear. There has always been cheating in baseball... ALWAYS. And there have always been PEDs in baseball too. What's legal? What's not? When did it become illegal? What level of play was it illegal for any given player (high school, in the DR, minor leagues)? Are players just irresponsible for not knowing what they use or if what they use is legal or are they actively trying to cheat? All these questions get thrown out the window so we can try to protect some records by players who we have no idea if they were doing something to get them in the first place?

Sorry, I can't call that integrity. I think it's pretty sad actually.

[Freelance]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

You said 10 years ago this would be a big deal and now we don't care. If you want to call it integrity then you'd have to admit that we have more integrity now (testing and actually punishing players caught) than was the case 10 years ago.

Either way, the "witch hunt" as ZB9 puts it (I agree 100%) shows less integrity as human beings than anything. The mob mentality brings to light how much like sheep we are... always have been but this makes it much too clear. There has always been cheating in baseball... ALWAYS. And there have always been PEDs in baseball too. What's legal? What's not? When did it become illegal? What level of play was it illegal for any given player (high school, in the DR, minor leagues)? Are players just irresponsible for not knowing what they use or if what they use is legal or are they actively trying to cheat? All these questions get thrown out the window so we can try to protect some records by players who we have no idea if they were doing something to get them in the first place?

Sorry, I can't call that integrity. I think it's pretty sad actually.

Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking. And taking steroids was and is illegal, by the law. Baseball shouldn't have to have a policy against something that's already illegal by law.

[wwharton]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking. And taking steroids was and is illegal, by the law. Baseball shouldn't have to have a policy against something that's already illegal by law.

It seems you have a false sense of the amount of players that have "integrity". If we're going to be so general then we need to cut out the sign stealers, bat corkers, ball greasers, etc. We can also add throwing at players on purpose for one reason or another... and that doesn't even count the players that have come forward to say they did various drugs in years past. Also since we're talking about integrity in general, lets list all the HOFers who illegally enjoyed alcohol, coke, etc. were womanizers and/or racists and just plain DBs.

If you feel baseball shouldn't have need a policy then they still shouldn't. Things should be handled the same as if the gov't finds a player with weed or coke. The MLB shouldn't be involved at all, right? Why are we talking about records and titles if the issue is about taking something illegal? If we're talking about preserving the game then the MLB should've been doing all they could to address the issue when everyone knew it was going on... but they didn't bc it was making them money and more relevant again. Can't have it both ways.

[Porschebenz2001]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

Anybody buying Ortiz's story?

[NYJets]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

Anybody buying Ortiz's story?

No.

The whole thing was just funny. Ortiz using the "I just take a lot of vitamins" excuse. Baseball waiting until fan favorite Big Papi's name leaks out to try and defend the players on the list. Members of the media talking about how genuine he sounded. What a joke.

[CMH]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

It really goes to show that the media and fans play favorites.

Why is Alex a liar but Ortiz is genuine? It's ridiculous.

[Blzer]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

Why is Alex a liar but Ortiz is genuine? It's ridiculous.

I'm not sure if anyone has said that yet, but IMO they downplayed Rodriguez too much as well. These guys deserve harshness for their lies.

[snepp]

Re: Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz on "The List"

It really goes to show that the media and fans play favorites.

Why is Alex a liar but Ortiz is genuine? It's ridiculous.

Probably because the vast majority of fans....