Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I mean, yeah, we can bemoan Jones not aging gracefully, but he still put up +67 WAR in his career, which is top 10 all-time at his position. His career trajectory was very similar to Griffey's, yet no one thinks Griffey wasted his career.

It's a little harsh to say someone threw away their career just because they fell off the "greatest of all-time" track to merely "objectively good Hall candidate but might not get in".

My comment is based on the fact that Jones openly eschewed physical training and loved fast food. I don't know if it would have made a difference...he came up young and put a LOT of miles on his body (he played nearly every game plus post-season for almost 10 seasons), so maybe he would have broken down like Griffey did.

I am with you...I think he's a HOF'r regardless. I'm just bemoaning what could have been if he had taken care of himself. Would have loved to see him stay in shape and continue to put up decent numbers well into his 30's.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

My comment is based on the fact that Jones openly eschewed physical training and loved fast food. I don't know if it would have made a difference...he came up young and put a LOT of miles on his body (he played nearly every game plus post-season for almost 10 seasons), so maybe he would have broken down like Griffey did.

I am with you...I think he's a HOF'r regardless. I'm just bemoaning what could have been if he had taken care of himself. Would have loved to see him stay in shape and continue to put up decent numbers well into his 30's.

Good points. Also, Jones was never a great (or even good) hitter and most of his value was tied to his defense, which tends to peak early.

Maybe he could have hung around as a decent role player in his 30s had he lifted weights instead of cheeseburgers, but again, I don't think that should considerably alter our view of him. This is where peak performance >>> longevity.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Good points. Also, Jones was never a great (or even good) hitter and most of his value was tied to his defense, which tends to peak early.

Maybe he could have hung around as a decent role player in his 30s had he lifted weights instead of cheeseburgers, but again, I don't think that should considerably alter our view of him. This is where peak performance >>> longevity.

Trust me...he's one of my favorite of all time, so I'm all on board. BTW - I did a study a few years ago and as far as I can tell Andruw is #3 for HOF'rs/potential HOF'rs in terms of WAR contribution coming from defensive stats. Brooks Robinson is #2, driving roughly 48% of his WAR from his glove, while Andruw comes in at nearly 40% coming from his glove. Ozzie Smith comes in at #1, deriving roughly 55% of his value from his glove.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

1. 400+ HR
2. Spectacular D in CF
3. Got fat on cheeseburgers
4. Gold Club testimony

The man is a hero.

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

As appreciative as I am with Pujols, I still think Andruw should've won the 2005 NL MVP. No way that team comes close to a division championship with all those rookies without him.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

As appreciative as I am with Pujols, I still think Andruw should've won the 2005 NL MVP. No way that team comes close to a division championship with all those rookies without him.

Agreed...I know Pujols had the higher WAR and put up great numbers on a playoff team himself, but Andruw basically carried that team. Chipper was out for 1/3 of the season and it seemed like every day another rookie had to fill in. All Andruw did was play fantastic defense at a key position, slam 51 homers and post a .900+ OPS. He did finish 2nd, but I really wanted him to win in that year.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Legit MVP candidate in '05, also a legit LVP candidate in '08.

Went to a Dodger game that year...and I've never heard a home player booed as loudly as he was. Just an awful experience. One of the many times in the Colletti era where we basically lit money on fire.

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Legit MVP candidate in '05, also a legit LVP candidate in '08.

Went to a Dodger game that year...and I've never heard a home player booed as loudly as he was. Just an awful experience. One of the many times in the Colletti era where we basically lit money on fire.

Yeah...Andruw I think was demotivated by Atlanta's willingness to let him go and the fact he got PAID. I think it was DTX here on the baseball forum that had an avatar of Andruw with a caption that said: "Eat another K fatty". I don't think I'll ever forget that.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Andruw is a bit like Shaq in that as amazing as they both were, they both could have been even BETTER. In Shaq's case it's weird to say because he's higher in the stratosphere of basketball than Andruw was in baseball, but it still holds true.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I can't recall if we've discussed him before, but since he's coming up on the ballot this year thought I'd drop his name again:

Scott Rolen

At first thought I think Hall of Very Good...then I look at his numbers and realize he posted a 70 WAR type of career. That's HOF material...and 3B is under represented anyway. I think he should be in.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

His stats were fine, but.....I know players don't and shouldn't get judged on team success, but either my memory is foggy right now or I just don't recall anything memorable that he did.

Eh.

EDIT: Alright I forgot his go-ahead HR in Game 7 of the 2004 NLCS. That's pretty big obviously. Still, I don't know.

[SPTO]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

The problem with Rolen is that he was always underappreciated. He was underrated defensively and while he did play on some great teams he doesn't immediately jump to your mind when you think of them. He's one of those guys that might have to be put in by the committee rather than through the media voting.

[l3ulvl]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2017/1/18/14290454/cardinals-scott-rolen-hall-of-fame-third-base-2018-jim-edmonds-adrian-beltre

I'm just throwing this in because I know the numbers dudes will have a good look, it's all above my head but my "use of surrounding terms" helps me pretend to understand

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2017/1/...-adrian-beltre

I'm just throwing this in because I know the numbers dudes will have a good look, it's all above my head but my "use of surrounding terms" helps me pretend to understand

This is a great article and makes a good case...IMO, he should be in. Another player that didn't realize had put together SUCH a solid career is Chase Utley. He's approaching nearly 70 WAR for his career...played for pennant winners/WS winner, had some memorable post-season moments. I'd vote for him.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

The new HOF ballot has been released and here are the names:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/a...hof_2018.shtml

Here's an interesting note on two players:

Player A:

165 wins, 131 ERA+, 53 WAR

Player B:
139 wins, 136 ERA+, 51 WAR

Player A sailed into the HOF with ease and is considered and all time great. Player B is a player I would have never even considered for the HOF, to be honest. Will be interesting to see how he does...

Spoiler

Player A is Koufax, Player B is Johan Santana