Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Biggio had the longevity but he was a worse career hitter (122 wRC+ vs 115 wRC+) and something like 8 WINS worse on defense. Rolen's the better guy for me too.

[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I would put Rolen ahead of Biggio as well. Biggio was a fringe guy for me because he only got to 3000 hits because he played so long. And was never really feared as a hitter like Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, Bagwell, Griffey, Pujols, etc. Also did we already have the discussion on Edmonds? And what was the consensus for him?

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I would put Rolen ahead of Biggio as well. Biggio was a fringe guy for me because he only got to 3000 hits because he played so long. And was never really feared as a hitter like Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, Bagwell, Griffey, Pujols, etc. Also did we already have the discussion on Edmonds? And what was the consensus for him?

I remember an Edmonds decision, yeah.

I'd put him in. Career 132 wRC+ with some of the best CF defense ever. Just shy of 400 dingers.

[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I remember an Edmonds decision, yeah.

I'd put him in. Career 132 wRC+ with some of the best CF defense ever. Just shy of 400 dingers.

Ok I thought we had discussed earlier and I agree he was a 4 tool CF from what I remember. He could hit for both power and avg. was a great fielder and had a good arm. I just don't remember him being a speedster. And I agree should be in the HOF probably on a second or third ballot though definitely not a first ballot type of guy.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

What about Vlad?

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...78&position=OF

[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

What about Vlad?

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...78&position=OF

Need to quote Rev Theory on this one, HELL YEAH!!!! Another 4 tool guy without the speed, from my memories. He had a great bat, the greatest arm I have seen in my life (just over 20 years). Actually he doesn't have an arm he has a cannon instead.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Would have liked to have seen a greater peak from a guy with < 60 WAR, so I'll lean towards no.

He won an MVP, made 9 All-Star games, and was considered one of the premiere offensive forces in the league during his time, so I think he'll hang around on the ballot for awhile.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Would have liked to have seen a greater peak from a guy with < 60 WAR, so I'll lean towards no.

He won an MVP, made 9 All-Star games, and was considered one of the premiere offensive forces in the league during his time, so I think he'll hang around on the ballot for awhile.

I think he gets in (and I would vote him in, too), but it may be a tough pill to swallow for folks who do the minimum 60 or 70 WAR is required thing before they'll even consider a guy. I was a bit surprised to see Vlad with only 54 fWAR or thereabouts, but it was because he's on the other end of the spectrum from Andruw Jones where the defense weighs him down. With Vlad's O and Andruw's D, I wonder how many WAR that would make..

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think he gets in (and I would vote him in, too), but it may be a tough pill to swallow for folks who do the minimum 60 or 70 WAR is required thing before they'll even consider a guy. I was a bit surprised to see Vlad with only 54 fWAR or thereabouts, but it was because he's on the other end of the spectrum from Andruw Jones where the defense weighs him down. With Vlad's O and Andruw's D, I wonder how many WAR that would make..

Jones with Vladdy's bat makes...

Gross math don't read

Spoiler

excuse any errors i literally just woke up
Vladdy: 464.8 wRAA/2147G
Jones: 2196 G
Vladdy: 475.4 wRAA/2196G
Jones: 161.3 wRAA
=314.1 extra wRAA = 33.9 extra WAR

A 101 WAR player.

[NYJets]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I would put Rolen ahead of Biggio as well. Biggio was a fringe guy for me because he only got to 3000 hits because he played so long. And was never really feared as a hitter like Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, Bagwell, Griffey, Pujols, etc. Also did we already have the discussion on Edmonds? And what was the consensus for him?

The whole "feared as a hitter" criteria needs to go away.

[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

The whole "feared as a hitter" criteria needs to go away.

Why? <url>

[ubernoob]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Why? <url>

Because it is both asinine and completely beside the point?

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Because it is both asinine and completely beside the point?

I get what you're saying but the intimidation and focus a player can elicit is real.

Regardless of what HOF voters think, Edgar was to be reckoned with; I don't have any data to support but I wonder what Junior's numbers would've been without Edgar. Not saying Junior wouldn't have been a top-tier HOF but Edgar was tremendous support.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

There have been studies done and they are not on the side of lineup protection.

Pitching around guys is dumb anyway tbh. A walk is a guaranteed on base. Putting it in the zone isn't always going to result in a bad outcome on good hitters, but a walk will. I've never really understood the appeal to pitching around good hitters. Unless of course you have Ryan Goins or Brendan Ryan behind him but that's obviously an absolute extreme.

I'm just going off the top of my head, I think the data says it exists but not significantly.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Yup, studies have basically debunked protection theory.

If anything, it probably works the other way. Griffrey hitting in front of Martinez and getting on base opens up a hole on the right side of the infield since the first baseman has to hold the runner. And some guys are awful pitching from the stretch.