Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Why? <url>

Because "he wasn't FEARED as a hitter" basically boils down to "this player was diminutive and got alot of his offensive value through walks, doubles, and baserunning." Just because Biggio didn't fit a preconceived notion of what a good hitter should be doesn't mean he wasn't one.

Leaving aside the subjective aspect of who's a "feared hitter" anyway, you're comparing a second baseman to slugging corner outfielders and first basemen. A guy like Craig Biggio provided way more defensive and baserunning value than some of the guys you compared him to.

And he was a good hitter regardless of position: a career 115 wRC+ despite 12,000+ PAs is a good number most anywhere in the field. Sammy Sosa put up a career 124 wRC+ in over 2,500 fewer plate apperances.
</url>

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I have some research to do on this lineup protection stuff.

I'll be back.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Because "he wasn't FEARED as a hitter" basically boils down to "this player was diminutive and got alot of his offensive value through walks, doubles, and baserunning."

This isn't really addressed to you but you were the last post on the topic, more of a generalization. I think a HOF baseball player should be feared by the other team.

I just don't think that the definition of "feared" is correct.

I think we both agree on that, probably because we're "FanGraphs.com guys" lol, but being feared as a baseball player should be about every aspect of the game. Why should Ryan Howard hit 25 homers and have no other hits and be more feared than a sneaky good guy like Kevin Kiermaier who has one of the best gloves in center field I've ever had the privilege to witness?

[NYJets]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Why? <url>

Because we have numbers, so there's no reason to use something that's completely subjective like how much other teams were afraid of a player. That argument also tends to favor guys in big markets who get lots of attention, and ignores guys who might be kind of under the radar, but still great players.

And in this specific case, most of those other guys you mentioned either:
A. Are better players than Biggio but that doesn't mean Biggio isn't still a hall of famer
B. Don't provide value in other ways besides power the way Biggio did
</url>

[pietasterp]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Alan Trammell

Case:
20 seasons (with Tigers): .285/.352/.415, 2,365 hits, 185 homers, 1,003 RBIs, 236 stolen bases, four Gold Gloves, six All-Star Games, one World Series title, 70.4 WAR

[redsox4evur]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Alan Trammell

Case:
20 seasons (with Tigers): .285/.352/.415, 2,365 hits, 185 homers, 1,003 RBIs, 236 stolen bases, four Gold Gloves, six All-Star Games, one World Series title, 70.4 WAR

Nope <url> if he had gotten 3K hits though he would be in.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Alan Trammell

Case:
20 seasons (with Tigers): .285/.352/.415, 2,365 hits, 185 homers, 1,003 RBIs, 236 stolen bases, four Gold Gloves, six All-Star Games, one World Series title, 70.4 WAR

Trammell's become a bit of a poster boy in recent years in terms of a guy who's crying out for recognition by the voters.

Here's an illuminating comparison:

<iframe src="http://www.fangraphs.com/graphframe.aspx?config=0&static=0&type=graphsw&num =1&h=450&w=450&players=1013157,826" scrolling="no" style="border:1px solid black;" frameborder="0" height="450" width="450"></iframe>
Source: FanGraphs -- Derek Jeter, Alan Trammell

Is he as good as Jeter? No, but he's in the ballpark. Just goes to show you that the dividing line between HOF and not HOF is narrative and the ability to hang around as a below-average regular and reach an arbitrary milestone.

[pietasterp]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I agree, it's mostly narrative. He didn't do backflips through the infield, so he's not remembered. Having said that...

Ozzie Smith: 19 seasons (with Padres and Cardinals), .262/.337/.328, 2,460 hits, 28 homers, 793 RBIs, 580 stolen bases, 13 Gold Gloves, 15 All-Star Games, one World Series title, 76.5 WAR

Barry Larkin: 19 seasons (with Reds), .295/.371/.444, 1995 MVP, 2,340 hits, 198 homers, 960 RBIs, 379 stolen bases, three Gold Gloves, 12 All-Star Games, one World Series title, 70.2 WAR

Smith was a no-doubt first ballot guy, Larkin got >50% of the vote every year before getting in 2 years after his initial eligibility (? off of recall...maybe check that). In my opinion, there's no appreciable difference between Trammell and either of the above.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Yeah, I would vote for Trammell.

His double-play partner Lou Whitaker should also be in.

[pietasterp]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Yeah, I would vote for Trammell.

His double-play partner Lou Whitaker should also be in.

Can we get Chip on the Hall voter roster, please?

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

It's more about reducing the power of 50+ year old white guys who want to engage in pointless gatekeeping and refuse to view the process through any kind of objective lens and instead think it's like choosing your favorite kind of ice cream.

Until then, you're going to get things like Jim Rice getting voted in because he was FEARED!!!! and Lou Whitaker falling off the ballot after 1 year because he didn't make enough All Star games or didn't reach a completely arbitrary milestone or whatever.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Ivan 'Pudge' Rodriguez.....go...

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Trammell's become a bit of a poster boy in recent years in terms of a guy who's crying out for recognition by the voters.

Here's an illuminating comparison:

<iframe src="http://www.fangraphs.com/graphframe.aspx?config=0&static=0&type=graphsw&num =1&h=450&w=450&players=1013157,826" scrolling="no" style="border:1px solid black;" frameborder="0" height="450" width="450"></iframe>
Source: FanGraphs -- Derek Jeter, Alan Trammell

Is he as good as Jeter? No, but he's in the ballpark. Just goes to show you that the dividing line between HOF and not HOF is narrative and the ability to hang around as a below-average regular and reach an arbitrary milestone.

I don't think WAR evaluates defense right? Trammel was tremendous and easily better than Jeter.

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Ivan 'Pudge' Rodriguez.....go...

I used to think he was the best defensive catcher behind Bench.


...then Yadi came along who perhaps has beaten Bench for the "GOAT".

Was he indicted on steroids a while back? Seems like I remember he was.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I don't think WAR evaluates defense right? Trammel was tremendous and easily better than Jeter.

WAR takes defense into account.