Top 5 Pitchers of all time

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Steve Carlton Pitching Stats for Years 1967 to 1984


<table class="sortable stats_table"><thead><tr onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align="left">Year</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align="middle">Tm</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Wins')" align="middle">W</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Losses')" align="middle">L</th><th class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Win-Loss Percentage
W / (W + L)
For players, leaders need one decision for every ten team games.
For managers, minimum to qualify for leading is 320 games.')" align="middle">W-L%</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 * ER / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">ERA</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Games Played or Pitched')" align="middle">G</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Games Started')" align="middle">GS</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Games Finished')" align="middle">GF</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Complete Game')" align="middle">CG</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Shutouts
No runs allowed and a complete game.')" align="middle">SHO</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Saves')" align="middle">SV</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Innings Pitched')" align="middle">IP</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Hits/Hits Allowed')" align="middle">H</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Runs Scored/Allowed')" align="middle">R</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Earned Runs Allowed')" align="middle">ER</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Home Runs Hit/Allowed')" align="middle">HR</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Bases on Balls/Walks')" align="middle">BB</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Intentional Bases on Balls
First tracked in 1955.')" align="middle">IBB</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Strikeouts')" align="middle">SO</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Times Hit by a Pitch.')" align="middle">HBP</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Balks')" align="middle">BK</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Wild Pitches')" align="middle">WP</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Batters Faced')" align="middle">BF</th><th class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('ERA+
100*[lgERA/ERA]
Adjusted to the player’s ballpark(s).')" align="middle">ERA+</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('(BB + H)/IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">WHIP</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x H / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">H/9</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x HR / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">HR/9</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x BB / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">BB/9</th><th class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x SO / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">SO/9</th><th class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('SO/BB
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">SO/BB</th></tr></thead><tbody><tr onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="left">1967-1984</td><td align="left">STL,PHI</td><td align="right">310</td><td align="right">204</td><td align="right">.603</td><td align="right">3.04</td><td align="right">633</td><td align="right">628</td><td align="right">2</td><td align="right">249</td><td align="right">54</td><td align="right">1</td><td align="right">4710.2</td><td align="right">4124</td><td align="right">1808</td><td align="right">1590</td><td align="right">349</td><td align="right">1577</td><td align="right">135</td><td align="right">3826</td><td align="right">47</td><td align="right">78</td><td align="right">159</td><td align="right">19416</td><td align="right">121</td><td align="right">1.210</td><td align="right">7.9</td><td align="right">0.7</td><td align="right">3.0</td><td align="right">7.3</td><td align="right">2.43</td></tr><tr class=" stat_total" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td colspan="2">Average</td><td align="right">17</td><td align="right">11</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">35</td><td align="right">35</td><td align="right">0</td><td align="right">14</td><td align="right">3</td><td align="right">0</td><td align="right">262</td><td align="right">229</td><td align="right">100</td><td align="right">88</td><td align="right">19</td><td align="right">88</td><td align="right">8</td><td align="right">213</td><td align="right">3</td><td align="right">4</td><td align="right">9</td><td align="right">1079</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td></tr><tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 170);" class=" stat_total" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td colspan="2">per 162 games</td><td align="right">17</td><td align="right">12</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">35</td><td align="right">34</td><td align="right">1</td><td align="right">14</td><td align="right">3</td><td align="right">1</td><td align="right">255</td><td align="right">223</td><td align="right">98</td><td align="right">86</td><td align="right">19</td><td align="right">86</td><td align="right">8</td><td align="right">207</td><td align="right">3</td><td align="right">5</td><td align="right">9</td><td align="right">1049</td><td align="right">
</td></tr></tbody></table>


Pedro Martinez Pitching Stats for Years 1993 to 2005


<table class="sortable stats_table"><thead><tr onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align="left">Year</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align="middle">Tm</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Wins')" align="middle">W</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Losses')" align="middle">L</th><th class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Win-Loss Percentage
W / (W + L)
For players, leaders need one decision for every ten team games.
For managers, minimum to qualify for leading is 320 games.')" align="middle">W-L%</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 * ER / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">ERA</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Games Played or Pitched')" align="middle">G</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Games Started')" align="middle">GS</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Games Finished')" align="middle">GF</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Complete Game')" align="middle">CG</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Shutouts
No runs allowed and a complete game.')" align="middle">SHO</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Saves')" align="middle">SV</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Innings Pitched')" align="middle">IP</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Hits/Hits Allowed')" align="middle">H</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Runs Scored/Allowed')" align="middle">R</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Earned Runs Allowed')" align="middle">ER</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Home Runs Hit/Allowed')" align="middle">HR</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Bases on Balls/Walks')" align="middle">BB</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Intentional Bases on Balls
First tracked in 1955.')" align="middle">IBB</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Strikeouts')" align="middle">SO</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Times Hit by a Pitch.')" align="middle">HBP</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Balks')" align="middle">BK</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Wild Pitches')" align="middle">WP</th><th class="tooltip" onmouseover="Tip('Batters Faced')" align="middle">BF</th><th class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('ERA+
100*[lgERA/ERA]
Adjusted to the player’s ballpark(s).')" align="middle">ERA+</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('(BB + H)/IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">WHIP</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x H / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">H/9</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x HR / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">HR/9</th><th class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x BB / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">BB/9</th><th class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x SO / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">SO/9</th><th class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('SO/BB
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align="middle">SO/BB</th></tr></thead><tbody><tr onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td align="left">1993-2005</td><td align="left">LAD,MON,BOS,NYM</td><td align="right">197</td><td align="right">83</td><td align="right">.704</td><td align="right">2.72</td><td align="right">417</td><td align="right">351</td><td align="right">22</td><td align="right">46</td><td align="right">17</td><td align="right">3</td><td align="right">2505.0</td><td align="right">1899</td><td align="right">833</td><td align="right">757</td><td align="right">194</td><td align="right">661</td><td align="right">24</td><td align="right">2853</td><td align="right">119</td><td align="right">4</td><td align="right">57</td><td align="right">10001</td><td align="right">167</td><td align="right">1.022</td><td align="right">6.8</td><td align="right">0.7</td><td align="right">2.4</td><td align="right">10.3</td><td align="right">4.32</td></tr><tr class=" stat_total" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td colspan="2">Average</td><td align="right">15</td><td align="right">6</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">32</td><td align="right">27</td><td align="right">2</td><td align="right">4</td><td align="right">1</td><td align="right">0</td><td align="right">193</td><td align="right">146</td><td align="right">64</td><td align="right">58</td><td align="right">15</td><td align="right">51</td><td align="right">2</td><td align="right">219</td><td align="right">9</td><td align="right">0</td><td align="right">4</td><td align="right">769</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td></tr><tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 170);" class=" stat_total" onmouseover="hl(this);" onmouseout="uhl(this);"><td colspan="2">per 162 games</td><td align="right">18</td><td align="right">8</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">
</td><td align="right">38</td><td align="right">32</td><td align="right">2</td><td align="right">5</td><td align="right">2</td><td align="right">1</td><td align="right">223</td><td align="right">170</td><td align="right">75</td><td align="right">68</td><td align="right">18</td><td align="right">59</td><td align="right">3</td><td align="right">254</td><td align="right">11</td><td align="right">1</td><td align="right">6</td><td align="right">891</td></tr></tbody></table>


One is Steve Carlton, one is Pedro Martinez. While yes...Martinez had the sub 3.00 ERA, better win %, and I guess all the stats you guys love were better...Carlton ate up innings and did so at a 60% chance of winning games over a longer period of time. Give me Carlton.

No argument there. You can have Carlton, I'd rather have Pedro. I would rather have 5 legendary years, than 10 above average ones. He did what he did in the greatest offensive era in baseball history, and in the American League with a DH, neither of which Carlton can say. In a season according to your stats, Steve Carlton would be 17-12 with 255 great innings pitched. I would rather have 18-8 with 223 dominant innings.

[sportyguyfl31]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

1) Pedro Martinez
2) Sandy Koufax
3) Tom Seaver
4) Lefty Grove
5) Greg Maddux


Guy's Ive seen

1) Pedro Martinez
2) Dwight Gooden
3) Greg Maddux
4) Randy Johnson
5) Mariano Rivera

--I disqualify Clemens for Roids/HGH

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Steve Carlton Pitching Stats for Years 1967 to 19
One is Steve Carlton, one is Pedro Martinez. While yes...Martinez had the sub 3.00 ERA, better win %, and I guess all the stats you guys love were better...Carlton ate up innings and did so at a 60% chance of winning games over a longer period of time. Give me Carlton.

And just for kicks, who's on your list?

[JBH3]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

And just for kicks, who's on your list?

I can't decide on an order, but these are the guys who I would consider the 5 greatest post WWII era. I tried to make a case keeping Pedro out of this list, but just can't lol; not that I have anything against him since he aided my Phillies to another WS berth. Although I love Koufax, and he won 20+ games the year he retired, I just can't put him in my top5 because I value the length of career when considering goat pitchers. And I decided if I was going to put Bob Gibson in, I had to include Pedro.

Randy Johnson: Sustained Dominance w/o aide of PEDs.

Warren Spahn: An Innings eater, and a dominant pitcher w/o the aid of strikeouts. A 13x 20gm winner.

Bob Gibson: Dominant for most of career, shorter career than others listed here.

Gregg Maddux: Sustained a brillant career, amassing 5,000 innings, 3,000+ Ks, and 300+ wins.

Pedro Martinez: Nuff said.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

My Top 5's


Ever (In My Opinion)

1.Walter Johnson
2. Sandy Koufax (based solely on that 5 or 6 year run of dominance)
3. Pedro Martinez (based solely on his 5 or 6 year run of dominance)
4. Bob Gibson
5. Steve Carlton


That I've Seen

1. Pedro Martinez
2. Greg Maddux
3. Roger Clemens
4. Randy Johnson
5. Mariano Rivera

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Wanna know how many other pitchers with at least 2,000 strikeouts can say that? Nobody.

Hi.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Hi.

Randy Johnson Career Strikeouts - 4875
Randy Johnson Career Baserunners - 5033 (Hits + Walks + Hits By Pitch)

Goodbye.

[JBH3]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Randy Johnson Career Strikeouts - 4875
Randy Johnson Career Baserunners - 5033 (Hits + Walks + Hits By Pitch)

Goodbye.

Career wins: 303. Career win %: .646

Let's not lose sight of that. With the highest career total of K/9 for any pitcher I'd say he impacted a vast amount of his wins moreso than flashy gloves and uber run-support.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Career wins: 303. Career win %: .646

Let's not lose sight of that. With the highest career total of K/9 for any pitcher I'd say he impacted a vast amount of his wins moreso than flashy gloves and uber run-support.

I'm not shorting Randy Johnson as a pitcher, but the argument was that Pedro is the only pitcher with more strikeouts than baserunners and someone posted Randy Johnson, who does not meet that criteria.

[JBH3]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

I'm not shorting Randy Johnson as a pitcher, but the argument was that Pedro is the only pitcher with more strikeouts than baserunners and someone posted Randy Johnson, who does not meet that criteria.

Gotcha.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Randy Johnson Career Strikeouts - 4875
Randy Johnson Career Baserunners - 5033 (Hits + Walks + Hits By Pitch)

Goodbye.

Ewing was actually my source for that (http://www.operationsports.com/vBull...best-ever.html), but apparently it's incorrect. My double check also came short since I assumed hit batsmen were already tallied as walks.

I stand corrected.

[bkrich83]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Best I have seen.. In no particular order, since for me it's near impossible to split hairs and rank them.

1. Greg Maddux
2. Randy Johnson
3. Orel Hershiser
4. Mike Scott
5. John Smoltz
6. Brett Saberhagen

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

I prefer a controlled period of absolute domination, like Pedro had, as opposed to the sustained greatness of a guy like Greg Maddux.

This assumes that Maddux also didn't have a period of absolute domination. Greg Maddux circa 1992-1995 put up 2 of the 5 greatest ERA+ seasons in the history of baseball and had another top 7 WHIP season in 1995.

Throw in his sustained greatness and his terrific glove and he tops Pedro on my list.

[bkrich83]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

This assumes that Maddux also didn't have a period of absolute domination. Greg Maddux circa 1992-1995 put up 2 of the 5 greatest ERA+ seasons in the history of baseball and had another top 7 WHIP season in 1995.

Throw in his sustained greatness and his terrific glove and he tops Pedro on my list.

Agreed.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

This assumes that Maddux also didn't have a period of absolute domination. Greg Maddux circa 1992-1995 put up 2 of the 5 greatest ERA+ seasons in the history of baseball and had another top 7 WHIP season in 1995.

Throw in his sustained greatness and his terrific glove and he tops Pedro on my list.

Maddux was great, but Pedro has the #1 season in the modern era in terms of ERA + and 5 in the top 35. Not to mention that Pedro was far more dominant than Maddux ever was. And again with WHIP, Pedro has the greatest season of all time and 4 in the top 60. Pedro's stretch of dominance, was far more dominant than Maddux. And I don't take fielding into consideration for pitchers. You don't have to field when your stuff is so filthy noone can touch it.