Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

**Sportsforever** · 04-09-2011, 02:42 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Originally posted by DrJones

The problem is, we don't KNOW that all of the "clean" players (Griffey, Thome, Thomas, Schilling, etc.) were really clean. Is Pettitte automatically excluded for "three days' use"? What about players like Bagwell, Piazza, Kent, Pudge, even Pedro? Common sense, if not proof, would lead one to believe that one or more of that group was using. Keep 'em all out? Only the ones mentioned in Canseco's book? Flip a coin?

At some point in the next decade or so, someone will get voted into the HoF that will later be revealed to have used PED's. Then what? Does that player get kicked out, even though his offence (unlike Charlie Hustle's or Shoeless Joe's) doesn't call for a permanent ban according to baseball's rule book? The whole thing's gonna fall apart.

There will continue to be huffing and puffing by media, fans, and former players for the next 10 years or so, but it's just too big a mess to properly judge who deserves enshrinement and who doesn't. Too many players used, probably a few that we'd never suspect. It's my opinion that at some point people are just going to throw up their hands and judge players solely by their numbers. Most of the prominent 'roiders (Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Manny, McGwire, possibly Sosa, Sheffield, and Palmeiro) will get in the HoF eventually. Though by "eventually", I mean 15-25 years from now, probably through a version of the Veterans Committee.

You said what I was trying to say, but will add I don't think ALL of them will get in. I think that some of the players will still have the stigma that PED's "helped" them put up HOF numbers. Players like Sosa and Palmerio who had large jumps late in their careers will have that held against them imo. A guy like Bonds, McGwire, Ramirez, Clemens, etc who did it from day one will have it over looked.

**Sportsforever** · 04-09-2011, 02:58 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Originally posted by 42

LOL, really?

It'll never happen - I'm sure there was a slim chance (maybe) BEFORE the news broke yesterday but now? Not a ****ing chance.

Does ARod get in?

**Keirik** · 04-09-2011, 03:45 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Originally posted by Sportsforever

Does ARod get in?

well, i cant answer for the other poster but i'm not sure if Arod gets in. To be honest, Manny has now piloted himself to be the worst of the HOF level steroid era. He's the only one who not only got caught once, but now twice too, making him now worse than Arod and every other player that tested positive.

**spit_bubble** · 04-09-2011, 03:50 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Now... If only ARoid would "retire" as well... Go off to live on an island somewhere, to have sagging starlets hand feed him popcorn... Then we might be getting somewhere.

**DrJones** · 04-09-2011, 03:55 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Originally posted by Keirik

well, i cant answer for the other poster but i'm not sure if Arod gets in. To be honest, Manny has now piloted himself to be the worst of the HOF level steroid era. He's the only one who not only got caught once, but now twice too, making him now worse than Arod and every other player that tested positive.

It makes Manny dumber. Don't see how it makes him "worse".

**Sportsforever** · 04-09-2011, 04:20 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Originally posted by DrJones

It makes Manny dumber. Don't see how it makes him "worse".

Exactly. That was going to be my point...are we now going to draw lines about this guy only got caught once, so he's not as bad as the guy who got caught twice? I don't hear anyone questioning ARod's HOF candidacy anymore, so I expect that the same type of thing will happen for Ramirez in years to come.

**travis72** · 04-09-2011, 04:26 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Originally posted by 42

LOL, really?

It'll never happen - I'm sure there was a slim chance (maybe) BEFORE the news broke yesterday but now? Not a ****ing chance.

Agreed! Don't know how anyone could say that any of these guys that are linked to PED's should or could get in. They cheated the game. While there was a time this stuff was not banned they all knew it was unethical to do it.

Pete Rose is not in the HOF based on betting on baseball then none of these guys should even be listed on a ballot. Rose bet on baseball while a manager not a player but is banned from the hall then so should these guys. Hell Shoeless Joe's not in the HOF and they never could find any evidence he tried throwing the WS but yet he's not in either so this is not me being a Reds Homer either.

**rsox** · 04-09-2011, 04:29 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...." is basically where we are at now with Manny and this latest incident. People would have looked past the first offense, being the first and subsequently only player in MLB to fail a drug test twice puts Manny in a catagory by himself (for now). I don't think the voters, many of which are east coast writers are going to give Manny the benifit of "Manny being Manny" this time around.

**Sportsforever** · 04-09-2011, 04:30 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Originally posted by travis72

Agreed! Don't know how anyone could say that any of these guys that are linked to PED's should or could get in. They cheated the game. While there was a time this stuff was not banned they all knew it was unethical to do it.

Pete Rose is not in the HOF based on betting on baseball then none of these guys should even be listed on a ballot. Rose bet on baseball while a manager not a player but is banned from the hall then so should these guys. Hell Shoeless Joe's not in the HOF and they never could find any evidence he tried throwing the WS but yet he's not in either so this is not me being a Reds Homer either.

Personally, I think it's bunk that Rose/Jackson aren't in the HOF. That said, what they did imo isn't comparable to taking PED's to improve your performance...I think it's an apples and oranges comparison.

55 · 04-09-2011, 04:37 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Pete Rose will be elected to the HoF the year after he dies (and rightfully so) as he has a "lifetime" ban.

**DrJones** · 04-09-2011, 05:00 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Originally posted by rsox

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...." is basically where we are at now with Manny and this latest incident. People would have looked past the first offense, being the first and subsequently only player in MLB to fail a drug test twice puts Manny in a catagory by himself (for now). I don't think the voters, many of which are east coast writers are going to give Manny the benifit of "Manny being Manny" this time around.

They won't. I don't think Manny's getting in for a long time. But at some point down the line, some 'roider will get in, and the dominos will start to fall. I'd put the over/under for Manny reaching the HoF around the year 2030 or so, long after any of us (hopefully) stopped giving a crap.

**Blzer** · 04-09-2011, 05:03 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Originally posted by 55

Pete Rose will be elected to the HoF the year after he dies (and rightfully so) as he has a "lifetime" ban.

Well, let's consider that he would be put in as a player, not a manager (or both for that matter). Say that today, Hank Aaron became the manager of some team and then he gets caught betting on the game, so he gets banned. Will his HOF status as a player be revoked? I seem to think it would not, and I also think it's completely irrelevant as to whether or not you've already been inducted as opposed to waiting to be inducted.

**travis72** · 04-09-2011, 05:06 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

Originally posted by 55

Pete Rose will be elected to the HoF the year after he dies (and rightfully so) as he has a "lifetime" ban.

I will not argue with that as he did break the rules that are written on the club house walls. IMO he should be in as a baseball player as he did not break rules as a player but as a manager. In my previous post I was just saying that none of these PED's players should even grace a ballot of HOF. Rose, Shoeless both deserve to be in before in of these guys should even be considered for the HOF.

While I personally do not believe any of the cheaters should get in, i do believe you could make a case for guys that were good and on there way to the Hall before using PED's. Guys like Bonds, Arod, and Mcguire I could possibly see a arguement. But take a guy like Sosa that was just a average player until the use of PED's there's no way to make a case for that bum. Clemens would be a tough one because if you look at when he was clean as a Red Sox those numbers would not be good enough based on longevity. It seems he started using after he left the Red Sox's and went the the Jays. Like I said I would not put none of these guys in but there are a few that were on there way until they started using PED's.

**djep** · 04-09-2011, 07:40 PM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

It's too bad - I've always really liked Manny despite being a Yankee fan. I wanted the Yankees to draft him instead of Brien Taylor since Manny was a hometown boy.

In my book his HOF chances are worse than those other guys. Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens - never been suspended for PED use. Lots of speculation, conjecture and of course, the Mitchell Report, but nothing like this. Getting caught twice! At least Arod has a chance to right his ship in this new era of steroid testing. Manny going out like this is just sad.

**Sportsforever** · 04-11-2011, 08:37 AM

Re: Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/dan_shaughnessy/04/10/manny.ramirez/index.html?eref=sihp

Good article imo from Dan Shaughnessy of the Boston Globe. I do agree with him that if Manny doesn't care, why should we?

Rays' Manny Ramirez to retire

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