Most underrated and overrated player

[Kashanova]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

Between Manny at .325/.427/.587 and Ortiz at .288/.369.592 who are you pitching to? Manny was a better hitter that year, and was treated accordingly.

lol, seriously? when they were walking Manny, Ortiz had a combined 72 home runs and like 230 RBI+ and an ops of .960+ so either way you could still walk a guy in front of another great guy

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

lol, seriously? when they were walking Manny, Ortiz had a combined 72 home runs and like 230 RBI+ and an ops of .960+ so either way you could still walk a guy in front of another great guy

I don't even understand what this means. Manny is a better hitter, more "feared" as you say, so he's going to be walked. You didn't even give context. How many of the walks were against left handed pitchers? 11 in a third as many plate appearances, he was intentionally walked 6 less times. Obviously as a lefty, you're going to walk Manny to get to Ortiz.

And that still means nothing. Jeter was hitting in front of an on base machine in Nick Johnson, a .900+ OPS switch hitter in Bernie, an emerging threat in Matsui, and a guy who hit 41 homers in Giambi. Why would you walk him if everyone after him is just as likely to get on base or drive him in? It makes no sense.

[TheNumber35]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

I don't even understand what this means. Manny is a better hitter, more "feared" as you say, so he's going to be walked. You didn't even give context. How many of the walks were against left handed pitchers? 11 in a third as many plate appearances, he was intentionally walked 6 less times. Obviously as a lefty, you're going to walk Manny to get to Ortiz.

And that still means nothing. Jeter was hitting in front of an on base machine in Nick Johnson, a .900+ OPS switch hitter in Bernie, an emerging threat in Matsui, and a guy who hit 41 homers in Giambi. Why would you walk him if everyone after him is just as likely to get on base or drive him in? It makes no sense.

Not to derail this thread too much, but after reading all this back and forth on IBBs, I decided to take a look at the leaders of IBB in the history of the game.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiibb1.shtml

Kind of interesting honestly.

Bonds has almost 400 more than the next closest hitter (Aaron) but after that it gets interesting and a little more close throughout. Vlad Guerrero has more in his career than Griffey Jr. Ichrio is tied with Dave Winfield and has more than Chipper, Thome, McGriff, Berkman, Reggie Jackson, Pete Rose, Bagwell, Sosa, McGuire, Piazza, and Andre Dawson.

Summary: IBB is a stat that can be helpful in showing somebody's value and the fear he instills in a team, but it also is defined by who's around you. Take it with a grain of salt. If you play with a bunch of nobodies every year like Ichiro, you'll get your IBB in any key situation.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

Overrated: Derek Sanderson Jeter.

Fair Warning I myself and a huge Yankee Fan. I've seen every single game Jeter has played. I can help but feel he's overrated. This guy has never been an elite player. When I say Elite I could never say that Jeter was the best player in baseball or at least in the top 5.

He was a top 5 player in WAR among position players in the AL in 1999, 2002, 2006, and 2009.

In two of those years ('99 and '06), he would have made a better MVP choice than the person who won that year.

He doesn't get feared. You'll never hear of a team having to intentionally walk him.

The Jim Rice defense makes its appearance.

Jeter has hit leadoff or in the second spot for the better part of his career ahead of sluggers like Giambi, Rodriguez, Texiera, Sheffield, and Cano. Any manager who would intentionally put runners on base for any one of those hitters is an idiot.

He hits into a lot of double plays.

So did Frank Robinson, Hank Aaron, and Al Kaline. That doesn't mean anything.

I also wouldn't be surprise if he has the most infield singles in the history of baseball, a lot of hits that should be errors are inconceivably ruled as hits.

He's also top 5 at his position in slugging percentage (throwing out A-Rod).

He isn't Ichiro.

Now I haven't even touch the defensive side of things. I feel that his range on defense is decent at best, his arm is ok, and yet here we are and Derek is winning Gold Gloves left and right. It's puzzling to me.

If "Derek Jeter's fielding ability" counted as an entry, then yes, I would totally agree with you, but he more than makes up for it with his bat.

He's second all-time among shortstops in runs created.

9th in RBI for shortstops? I'm talking about overall. I don't make exceptions for players. I rank them as everyday players. As far as how they rate him. I felt he's rated to high thus why I think he's overrated. I've seen people say Jeter is the greatest player of our generation or things like he's the best player since (insert random elite player)

This is baseball. Position matters - alot. There are very, very few shortstops who can swing the bat like Jeter does, which makes his offensive production much more valuable.

To understand the concept of positional adjustment, ask yourself if people expect the same amount of hitting from catchers as they do from first basemen or corner outfielders. They don't, which is why Joe Mauer got $234234234 for putting up numbers that are merely "very good" for first basemen and corner outfielders.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

For Jeter I apply the "anywhere but NY" test. If Derek Jeter played for say, the Kansas City Royals, would he still be considered to be the same caliber of player as he is now. There is no doubt Jeter is a great player, a future HOF'r, and one of the best hitting SS of all time. The fact that he has been a Yankee has elevated him to something more.

If he played for KC, then he would be underrated. However, playing in NY, he gets the appropriate amount of hype.*** I think this is a logical fallacy on your end. Just because you're underrated for playing in a small-market doesn't automatically make you overrated for playing in a large market.

*** Yes, the media massively overrates Jeter's defense and his "WHOMG clutchness". Yet for every factor they overrate his defense and "intangibles", they equally underrate his bat. Jeter didn't win his first Silver Slugger award until his age 32 season.

Judging by a few posts in this thread, I don't think people comprehend how historically great Jeter's bat is for his position. He's second all-time in weighted runs created among shortstops and he's up there in the relevant rate stats (OBP, wOBA, +wRC, etc.) despite accumulating 11,500+ PAs. He will likely retire as the greatest offensive shortstop since the war. The first world war.

The players who are found to be similar are guys like Lou Whitaker, Johnny Damon, and Craig Biggio. Great/good players, but certainly not the category of player Yankee fans/Media like to place him in.

One of these is not like the other.

[jth1331]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

He was a top 5 player in WAR among position players in the AL in 1999, 2002, 2006, and 2009.

In two of those years ('99 and '06), he would have made a better MVP choice than the person who won that year.

Just wanted to point out in both years, there were definitely better candidates than even Jeter and the winner of the Award.
1999 should have been Pedro winning, heck he got the most 1st place votes but finished second.
2006, another pitcher in Johan made a case. Also, Grady Sizemore. But voters looked at the monster RBI total with Morneau and his other solid numbers and voted for him over everybody else.

I think its ridiculous how the voting goes sometimes. Heck, look at 2007 NL MVP. I fully believe, maybe a little homer/bias involved, that Holliday should've won the MVP over Rollins, but the thing is Prince Fielder received 5 first place votes that year. Probably due to his 50 homeruns he hit, when both Rollins and Holliday produced higher WAR. Heck, David Wright had the highest WAR of anybody but finished a distant 4th with no 1st place votes. Which is ridiculous, because both the Brewers and Mets didn't make the playoffs, but punish Wright for the epic Mets collapse.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

Just wanted to point out in both years, there were definitely better candidates than even Jeter and the winner of the Award.
1999 should have been Pedro winning, heck he got the most 1st place votes but finished second.
2006, another pitcher in Johan made a case. Also, Grady Sizemore. But voters looked at the monster RBI total with Morneau and his other solid numbers and voted for him over everybody else.

I don't disagree. My point is that Jeter was good enough in both years that he would have made a plausible MVP choice.

He's definitely had a few elite years. Even his down years are elite relative to his position in the AL, given how talent-deprived that position was in the mid-2000s.

I think its ridiculous how the voting goes sometimes. Heck, look at 2007 NL MVP. I fully believe, maybe a little homer/bias involved, that Holliday should've won the MVP over Rollins, but the thing is Prince Fielder received 5 first place votes that year. Probably due to his 50 homeruns he hit, when both Rollins and Holliday produced higher WAR. Heck, David Wright had the highest WAR of anybody but finished a distant 4th with no 1st place votes. Which is ridiculous, because both the Brewers and Mets didn't make the playoffs, but punish Wright for the epic Mets collapse.

Rollins in 2007 was a legitimately terrible choice.

He wasn't even the best player in the Phillies infield - it was Utley by a mile, which is partly why he got my vote for most underrated.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

If he played for KC, then he would be underrated. However, playing in NY, he gets the appropriate amount of hype.*** I think this is a logically fallacy on your end. Just because you're underrated for playing in a small-market doesn't automatically make you overrated for playing in a large market.

*** Yes, the media massively overrates Jeter's defense and his "WHOMG clutchness". Yet for every factor they overrate his defense and "intangibles", they equally underrate his bat. Jeter didn't win his first Silver Slugger award until his age 32 season.

Judging by a few posts in this thread, I don't think people comprehend how historically great Jeter's bat is for his position. He's second all-time in weighted runs created among shortstops and he's up there in the relevant rate stats (OBP, wOBA, +wRC, etc.) despite accumulating 11,500+ PAs. He will likely retire as the greatest offensive shortstop since the war. The first world war.

One of these is not like the other.

Those players listed are straight from his similarity scores. I agree that he would be underrated if he played for the Royals...my point is that because he's a Yankee and he's won 5 rings he's painted as something he's not. For example, I've heard debates about who's the greatest Yankee - DiMaggio, Mantle, or Jeter. Now which of these is not like the other?

[55]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

None of those guys were the greatest Yankee.

[DieHardYankee26]

Those players listed are straight from his similarity scores. I agree that he would be underrated if he played for the Royals...my point is that because he's a Yankee and he's won 5 rings he's painted as something he's not. For example, I've heard debates about who's the greatest Yankee - DiMaggio, Mantle, or Jeter. Now which of these is not like the other?

The greatest Yankee of those 3, Mantle, is at best the 3rd greatest Yankee.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

None of those guys were the greatest Yankee.

The greatest Yankee of those 3, Mantle, is at best the 3rd greatest Yankee.

Hey, I agree. I'd put Ruth and Gehrig ahead of all of them. I'm just saying this is the kind of stuff people try and spin with Jeter. The guy is great, but he isn't at that level.

[DieHardYankee26]

Even then, that's 4 hitters in Yankee history better than him. Yogi makes 5. Is he the 6th greatest Yankee position player of all time? Is that not impressive?

[niharjhatn]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

IMO most underrated is Miguel Cabrera. Most overrated = Michael Young. Seriously... he's a decent player, but both fans and OTHER players rank him so incredibly high.

[TCM]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

IMO most underrated is Miguel Cabrera..

Miguel Cabrera is in no sense underrated what so ever, in fact he's one of the most talked about players in the game.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Most underrated and overrated player

Even then, that's 4 hitters in Yankee history better than him. Yogi makes 5. Is he the 6th greatest Yankee position player of all time? Is that not impressive?

Okay, I never said Jeter isn't great or isn't impressive. I do! My point is, as the topic of this thread is, is that he is overrated. I think we can all agree that's the case...that doesn't mean he isn't great or a HOF'r.