Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

**Birdsonbat** · 02-18-2004, 07:14 PM

Re: Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
rsox said:
One could even argue that Edgar Renteria is a better SS than Derek Jeter.

<hr /></blockquote>

They could, but then they'd also lose that argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Renteria is a better shortstop now than Jeter is now. Defensively, offensively. Prove me wrong.

Edit: Forgot, he is a better base runner too.

**NYJets** · 02-18-2004, 07:34 PM

Re: Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Birdsonbat said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
rsox said:
One could even argue that Edgar Renteria is a better SS than Derek Jeter.

<hr /></blockquote>

They could, but then they'd also lose that argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Renteria is a better shortstop now than Jeter is now. Defensively, offensively. Prove me wrong.

Edit: Forgot, he is a better base runner too.

<hr /></blockquote>

Defensively, Yes.

Offensively:
Career Numbers:
Jeter .317 127 615 OPS .851
Renteria: .289 73 493 OPS .748

Last 3 Years:
Jeter .309 49 201 OPS .831
Renteria .300 34 240 OPS .787

The only year Renteria had better numbers was last year, a year that Jeter missed much of the year due to injury. Baserunning? Renteria has more stolen bases, but also trys to steal a lot more. Both have pretty good speed, both are smart baserunners.

Statistically, they are even when Renteria has been at his best, but this doesn't include intangables. Maybe you don't believe they exist, but all you have to do is watch Jeter on a regular basis to see that they do.

**NYJets** · 02-18-2004, 07:34 PM

Re: Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Birdsonbat said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
rsox said:
One could even argue that Edgar Renteria is a better SS than Derek Jeter.

<hr /></blockquote>

They could, but then they'd also lose that argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Renteria is a better shortstop now than Jeter is now. Defensively, offensively. Prove me wrong.

Edit: Forgot, he is a better base runner too.

<hr /></blockquote>

Defensively, Yes.

Offensively:
Career Numbers:
Jeter .317 127 615 OPS .851
Renteria: .289 73 493 OPS .748

Last 3 Years:
Jeter .309 49 201 OPS .831
Renteria .300 34 240 OPS .787

The only year Renteria had better numbers was last year, a year that Jeter missed much of the year due to injury. Baserunning? Renteria has more stolen bases, but also trys to steal a lot more. Both have pretty good speed, both are smart baserunners.

Statistically, they are even when Renteria has been at his best, but this doesn't include intangables. Maybe you don't believe they exist, but all you have to do is watch Jeter on a regular basis to see that they do.

**NYJets** · 02-18-2004, 07:34 PM

Re: Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Birdsonbat said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
rsox said:
One could even argue that Edgar Renteria is a better SS than Derek Jeter.

<hr /></blockquote>

They could, but then they'd also lose that argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Renteria is a better shortstop now than Jeter is now. Defensively, offensively. Prove me wrong.

Edit: Forgot, he is a better base runner too.

<hr /></blockquote>

Defensively, Yes.

Offensively:
Career Numbers:
Jeter .317 127 615 OPS .851
Renteria: .289 73 493 OPS .748

Last 3 Years:
Jeter .309 49 201 OPS .831
Renteria .300 34 240 OPS .787

The only year Renteria had better numbers was last year, a year that Jeter missed much of the year due to injury. Baserunning? Renteria has more stolen bases, but also trys to steal a lot more. Both have pretty good speed, both are smart baserunners.

Statistically, they are even when Renteria has been at his best, but this doesn't include intangables. Maybe you don't believe they exist, but all you have to do is watch Jeter on a regular basis to see that they do.

**Birdsonbat** · 02-18-2004, 07:51 PM

Re: Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Birdsonbat said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
rsox said:
One could even argue that Edgar Renteria is a better SS than Derek Jeter.

<hr /></blockquote>

They could, but then they'd also lose that argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Renteria is a better shortstop now than Jeter is now. Defensively, offensively. Prove me wrong.

Edit: Forgot, he is a better base runner too.

<hr /></blockquote>

Defensively, Yes.

Offensively:
Career Numbers:
Jeter .317 127 615 OPS .851
Renteria: .289 73 493 OPS .748

Last 3 Years:
Jeter .309 49 201 OPS .831
Renteria .300 34 240 OPS .787

The only year Renteria had better numbers was last year, a year that Jeter missed much of the year due to injury. Baserunning? Renteria has more stolen bases, but also trys to steal a lot more. Both have pretty good speed, both are smart baserunners.

Statistically, they are even when Renteria has been at his best, but this doesn't include intangables. Maybe you don't believe they exist, but all you have to do is watch Jeter on a regular basis to see that they do.

<hr /></blockquote>

I do believe in intangibles and I mentioned that I believe that Jeter is a great leader. I only threw in the intagibles thing because of the Martinez disaster and as a low blow to the Cardinals management's atempt at justifying his contract. And plus, I have long been a Jeter fan, I have nothing against the guy, and have always appreciated the professionalism that he brings to the game.

Now, I understand your point on the baserunning. From a NL view I guess it is predetermined that a SS is supposed to be a sb guy.

But looking at numbers you could even take Jeter's '02 numbers, his last full season, and they are not better than Renteria's '02 numbers as close as they are.

2002
Renteria: .305 11 83 .803 ops
Jeter: .297 18 75 .794 ops

I think it is also fair to say that Jeter's offensive numbers have decreased each year while Renteria's have increased.

Good coversation.

**Birdsonbat** · 02-18-2004, 07:51 PM

Re: Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Birdsonbat said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
rsox said:
One could even argue that Edgar Renteria is a better SS than Derek Jeter.

<hr /></blockquote>

They could, but then they'd also lose that argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Renteria is a better shortstop now than Jeter is now. Defensively, offensively. Prove me wrong.

Edit: Forgot, he is a better base runner too.

<hr /></blockquote>

Defensively, Yes.

Offensively:
Career Numbers:
Jeter .317 127 615 OPS .851
Renteria: .289 73 493 OPS .748

Last 3 Years:
Jeter .309 49 201 OPS .831
Renteria .300 34 240 OPS .787

The only year Renteria had better numbers was last year, a year that Jeter missed much of the year due to injury. Baserunning? Renteria has more stolen bases, but also trys to steal a lot more. Both have pretty good speed, both are smart baserunners.

Statistically, they are even when Renteria has been at his best, but this doesn't include intangables. Maybe you don't believe they exist, but all you have to do is watch Jeter on a regular basis to see that they do.

<hr /></blockquote>

I do believe in intangibles and I mentioned that I believe that Jeter is a great leader. I only threw in the intagibles thing because of the Martinez disaster and as a low blow to the Cardinals management's atempt at justifying his contract. And plus, I have long been a Jeter fan, I have nothing against the guy, and have always appreciated the professionalism that he brings to the game.

Now, I understand your point on the baserunning. From a NL view I guess it is predetermined that a SS is supposed to be a sb guy.

But looking at numbers you could even take Jeter's '02 numbers, his last full season, and they are not better than Renteria's '02 numbers as close as they are.

2002
Renteria: .305 11 83 .803 ops
Jeter: .297 18 75 .794 ops

I think it is also fair to say that Jeter's offensive numbers have decreased each year while Renteria's have increased.

Good coversation.

**Birdsonbat** · 02-18-2004, 07:51 PM

Re: Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Birdsonbat said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
rsox said:
One could even argue that Edgar Renteria is a better SS than Derek Jeter.

<hr /></blockquote>

They could, but then they'd also lose that argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Renteria is a better shortstop now than Jeter is now. Defensively, offensively. Prove me wrong.

Edit: Forgot, he is a better base runner too.

<hr /></blockquote>

Defensively, Yes.

Offensively:
Career Numbers:
Jeter .317 127 615 OPS .851
Renteria: .289 73 493 OPS .748

Last 3 Years:
Jeter .309 49 201 OPS .831
Renteria .300 34 240 OPS .787

The only year Renteria had better numbers was last year, a year that Jeter missed much of the year due to injury. Baserunning? Renteria has more stolen bases, but also trys to steal a lot more. Both have pretty good speed, both are smart baserunners.

Statistically, they are even when Renteria has been at his best, but this doesn't include intangables. Maybe you don't believe they exist, but all you have to do is watch Jeter on a regular basis to see that they do.

<hr /></blockquote>

I do believe in intangibles and I mentioned that I believe that Jeter is a great leader. I only threw in the intagibles thing because of the Martinez disaster and as a low blow to the Cardinals management's atempt at justifying his contract. And plus, I have long been a Jeter fan, I have nothing against the guy, and have always appreciated the professionalism that he brings to the game.

Now, I understand your point on the baserunning. From a NL view I guess it is predetermined that a SS is supposed to be a sb guy.

But looking at numbers you could even take Jeter's '02 numbers, his last full season, and they are not better than Renteria's '02 numbers as close as they are.

2002
Renteria: .305 11 83 .803 ops
Jeter: .297 18 75 .794 ops

I think it is also fair to say that Jeter's offensive numbers have decreased each year while Renteria's have increased.

Good coversation.

**rsox** · 02-18-2004, 08:20 PM

Re: Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
rsox said:
One could even argue that Edgar Renteria is a better SS than Derek Jeter.

<hr /></blockquote>

They could, but then they'd also lose that argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Edgar Renteria has alway been a good fielding SS, and over the past few seasons has developed into a solid offensive player as well, Derek Jeter has seen his skills decline over the past few seasons,
let's compare Renteria and Jeter over the past 3 seasons,

at the plate,
Renteria:
AB, 1624
AVG, .300
Hits, 488
HR, 34
RBI, 240
SB, 73
BB, 153
SO, 184
OBP, .360
SLG, .433

Jeter:
AB, 1740
AVG, .309
Hite, 538
HR, 49
RBI, 201
SB, 70
BB, 172
SO, 301
OBP, .380
SLG, .450

offensivly very similar numbers for the two players, the numbers that stand out are the Strike Outs, Jeter has 116 more AB's then Reneria, but has struck out 117 more times, other than that, the numbers are very comparable,

in the field,
Renteria:
TC, 1898
PO, 599
A, 1240
E, 59
Gold Gloves, 2

Jeter:
TC, 1615
PO, 590
A, 982
E, 43
Gold Gloves, 0

Career Fielding Percentage, Renteria: .968, Jeter: .973,

once again very similar, but you have to admit that Jeter has lost some of his range, just look at the total chances, Renteria had 283 more chances than Jeter, thats 283 more balls that Renteria got too, Jeter has lost a step, of course with more chances comes a higher margin for error, and Renteria does have 16 more Errors over the last three years,
before anyone blames Jeter's shoulder injury last year for why he has fewer Chances and Assists, the difference in total games played for the two players over the 3 years is 8, Renteria has appeared in 8 more games over this span than Jeter.

Jeter for his career is a great player, offensivly he will finish with much better numbers than Renteria, but SS is a defensive position, Renteria is a better defensive SS, and it is a position that Jeter may be giving up in the near future.

**rsox** · 02-18-2004, 08:20 PM

Re: Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
rsox said:
One could even argue that Edgar Renteria is a better SS than Derek Jeter.

<hr /></blockquote>

They could, but then they'd also lose that argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Edgar Renteria has alway been a good fielding SS, and over the past few seasons has developed into a solid offensive player as well, Derek Jeter has seen his skills decline over the past few seasons,
let's compare Renteria and Jeter over the past 3 seasons,

at the plate,
Renteria:
AB, 1624
AVG, .300
Hits, 488
HR, 34
RBI, 240
SB, 73
BB, 153
SO, 184
OBP, .360
SLG, .433

Jeter:
AB, 1740
AVG, .309
Hite, 538
HR, 49
RBI, 201
SB, 70
BB, 172
SO, 301
OBP, .380
SLG, .450

offensivly very similar numbers for the two players, the numbers that stand out are the Strike Outs, Jeter has 116 more AB's then Reneria, but has struck out 117 more times, other than that, the numbers are very comparable,

in the field,
Renteria:
TC, 1898
PO, 599
A, 1240
E, 59
Gold Gloves, 2

Jeter:
TC, 1615
PO, 590
A, 982
E, 43
Gold Gloves, 0

Career Fielding Percentage, Renteria: .968, Jeter: .973,

once again very similar, but you have to admit that Jeter has lost some of his range, just look at the total chances, Renteria had 283 more chances than Jeter, thats 283 more balls that Renteria got too, Jeter has lost a step, of course with more chances comes a higher margin for error, and Renteria does have 16 more Errors over the last three years,
before anyone blames Jeter's shoulder injury last year for why he has fewer Chances and Assists, the difference in total games played for the two players over the 3 years is 8, Renteria has appeared in 8 more games over this span than Jeter.

Jeter for his career is a great player, offensivly he will finish with much better numbers than Renteria, but SS is a defensive position, Renteria is a better defensive SS, and it is a position that Jeter may be giving up in the near future.

**rsox** · 02-18-2004, 08:20 PM

Re: Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
rsox said:
One could even argue that Edgar Renteria is a better SS than Derek Jeter.

<hr /></blockquote>

They could, but then they'd also lose that argument.

<hr /></blockquote>

Edgar Renteria has alway been a good fielding SS, and over the past few seasons has developed into a solid offensive player as well, Derek Jeter has seen his skills decline over the past few seasons,
let's compare Renteria and Jeter over the past 3 seasons,

at the plate,
Renteria:
AB, 1624
AVG, .300
Hits, 488
HR, 34
RBI, 240
SB, 73
BB, 153
SO, 184
OBP, .360
SLG, .433

Jeter:
AB, 1740
AVG, .309
Hite, 538
HR, 49
RBI, 201
SB, 70
BB, 172
SO, 301
OBP, .380
SLG, .450

offensivly very similar numbers for the two players, the numbers that stand out are the Strike Outs, Jeter has 116 more AB's then Reneria, but has struck out 117 more times, other than that, the numbers are very comparable,

in the field,
Renteria:
TC, 1898
PO, 599
A, 1240
E, 59
Gold Gloves, 2

Jeter:
TC, 1615
PO, 590
A, 982
E, 43
Gold Gloves, 0

Career Fielding Percentage, Renteria: .968, Jeter: .973,

once again very similar, but you have to admit that Jeter has lost some of his range, just look at the total chances, Renteria had 283 more chances than Jeter, thats 283 more balls that Renteria got too, Jeter has lost a step, of course with more chances comes a higher margin for error, and Renteria does have 16 more Errors over the last three years,
before anyone blames Jeter's shoulder injury last year for why he has fewer Chances and Assists, the difference in total games played for the two players over the 3 years is 8, Renteria has appeared in 8 more games over this span than Jeter.

Jeter for his career is a great player, offensivly he will finish with much better numbers than Renteria, but SS is a defensive position, Renteria is a better defensive SS, and it is a position that Jeter may be giving up in the near future.

**K_GUN** · 02-18-2004, 08:21 PM

Re: Yankees better then NL Allstar team?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
NYJets37 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Birdsonbat said:
Edit: And plus, I don't buy into intangibles any more as that was Jocketty and LaRussa's reasoning over what Tino Martinez brought to the Cardinals.