MLB Off-Topic

[Suntan Superman]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Right, I know the history of most of those names. We're probably beating a dead horse here, but how is the Florida State Seminole not as offensive as the Indians logo?

They have a mascot that literally rides around on a horse dressed as a native american and throws a spear. Is it because it has a more elegant look?

Personally, I don't really know. I would say the the elegance and portrayal has something to do with it. When things are represented respectfully, it elicits a far different response than when they are not.

I think the Braves logo has the most justifiable grounds for banning because it was deemed the "screaming savage" which obviously is offensive.

I can't believe anyone in that organization thought it was a good idea to bring that back.

But the Indians logo? You know what that reminds me of, "Major League" that's really it. Now your right, while I have indian in me, I'm not fully blooded.

Honestly, I feel the same, Chief Wahoo reminds me of Major League(mostly Willie Mays Hayes), and players like Omar Vizquel and Roberto Alomar(even though he was only there two years). I think that's important to recognize though that people will always see different things in these logos.

Ah well, agree to disagree.

I feel it's important to note, I don't think there is a clean answer here. I'd like all of the offensive imagery removed from Professional sports, because I enjoy sports, and I want everyone to get the same enjoyment out of sports that I do. I understand that's not really possible, but it's the dream. I will say I'm very happy that we were both able to keep this unpleasant topic, pleasant between us.

[CMH]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Fair point, but on the flipside who are you to tell a privately owned team, what is acceptable on your uniforms, and the use of your name?

Regarding the Celtics logo, take a good look at it, isn't it pretty stereotypical of an Irishman? Someone could find that just as offensive as the Indian logo.



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You're right. I didn't quite remember all of the features of the logo.

But I think its depiction falls in line with the Seminoles. The groups have embraced it.

Native Americans don't embrace the Chief Wahoo logo. I don't think we should tell them how to feel about it.

Just to comment on the flip of that in your previous comment, we as people have the right to complain about anything. We pretty much all do. You're complaining about this, for example. I'm complaining about you complaining.

Native Americans have every right to tell a private company what they don't like. It's up to the private company to decide if the complaint is worth their time, money and brand.

Let's remember the Indians have long faced these complaints and done nothing, or very little, about it. So it's entirely up to them what they decide to do. Their response to remove Wahoo from the caps is their response. Teams change cap logos all the time. Wahoo is still on the sleeve, so as far as we know, the franchise doesn't give a crap what Native Americans think.

[kehlis]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I just want to say that even though this can be a difficult discussion to have it's been done in an amazingly good fashion here.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Personally, I don't really know. I would say the the elegance and portrayal has something to do with it. When things are represented respectfully, it elicits a far different response than when they are not.


I can't believe anyone in that organization thought it was a good idea to bring that back.


Honestly, I feel the same, Chief Wahoo reminds me of Major League(mostly Willie Mays Hayes), and players like Omar Vizquel and Roberto Alomar(even though he was only there two years). I think that's important to recognize though that people will always see different things in these logos.



I feel it's important to note, I don't think there is a clean answer here. I'd like all of the offensive imagery removed from Professional sports, because I enjoy sports, and I want everyone to get the same enjoyment out of sports that I do. I understand that's not really possible, but it's the dream. I will say I'm very happy that we were both able to keep this unpleasant topic, pleasant between us.

Absolutely man, I value your opinion, and you brought up great points. Nothing wrong with a healthy discussion.

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[Sportsforever]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I usually don't comment on these discussions because this isn't what OS is for...but this has been quite a good discussion. I am of Cherokee descent (my great grandparents were 100%) and had relatives on the trail of tears, yet I find the obsession with finding sports logos to be offensive in our current society to be a waste of time. I have never seen a sports logo and felt it defined me or any other person...there are so many other things in this world to work on than asking/pushing for a change of these names/logos.

I understand if some are upset about it, but if we change things because people are upset/don't like them where does it stop? Someone will ALWAYS find something to not like about everything. Just my .02...

[DamnYanks2]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I usually don't comment on these discussions because this isn't what OS is for...but this has been quite a good discussion. I am of Cherokee descent (my great grandparents were 100%) and had relatives on the trail of tears, yet I find the obsession with finding sports logos to be offensive in our current society to be a waste of time. I have never seen a sports logo and felt it defined me or any other person...there are so many other things in this world to work on than asking/pushing for a change of these names/logos.

I understand if some are upset about it, but if we change things because people are upset/don't like them where does it stop? Someone will ALWAYS find something to not like about everything. Just my .02...

That's really my main point, it begins a slippery slope, do I care so much that a logo gets changed, no, not so much. Wahoo may be synonymous with the Indians, but of course they could come up with a much cooler logo.

I'm just worried this leads to a push for team names to be changed. Which has happened to some college teams. Now I don't think that's imminent, but it wouldn't surprise me. Which can not happen.



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[redsox4evur]

MLB Off-Topic

Also let's the Yankees name to this debate. It could be considered offensive to people from New England and the rest of the US. Where is the outrage over their name? I mean if we wanna get politically correct then let's go all out. Change all the even somewhat offensive names and logos. But that could meaning some of the most recognizable names in American pro sports including the Celtics and Yankees.


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[Suntan Superman]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

That's really my main point, it begins a slippery slope, do I care so much that a logo gets changed, no, not so much. Wahoo may be synonymous with the Indians, but of course they could come up with a much cooler logo.

I'm just worried this leads to a push for team names to be changed. Which has happened to some college teams. Now I don't think that's imminent, but it wouldn't surprise me. Which can not happen.



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I really don't think it's as slippery as a slope as people want to make it out to be(like almost all slippery slopes). I personally don't see team name changes coming for anyone(other than hopefully the Redskins). What I do hope to see is a greater understanding of the Native American culture, and less appropriation of it

[DamnYanks2]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I really don't think it's as slippery as a slope as people want to make it out to be(like almost all slippery slopes). I personally don't see team name changes coming for anyone(other than hopefully the Redskins). What I do hope to see is a greater understanding of the Native American culture, and less appropriation of it

But how can you just change the Redskins name? Such a iconic franchise in the NFL, it's been around for such a long time. If I'm a redskins fan, and they destroy the name, I would be royally pissed. Wouldn't you?

Now I admit, you can see the racial undertone in the name "Redskins" it's pretty blatant if you take time to think about it. But, destroying the name to appease certain individuals is going too far.

There needs to be the understanding too, that if individuals associate a team name and think it depicts a group of people, then that's just their own ignorance. But I personally never ever thought about these team names in any manner other then they were just cool mascot logos, until this discussion.

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[CMH]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Also let's the Yankees name to this debate. It could be considered offensive to people from New England and the rest of the US. Where is the outrage over their name? I mean if we wanna get politically correct then let's go all out. Change all the even somewhat offensive names and logos. But that could meaning some of the most recognizable names in American pro sports including the Celtics and Yankees.


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Funny(?) story.

A lot of regulars here know me from when I was YankeePride (or ******Pride )

I had been YP on other message boards as well. I won't name the place or company, but the message board associated with this game I play, merged with an English (as in British) company. With that came our names.

Adding to that, both sides of the pond were unhappy about this merger. So the message boards essentially turned into debates over the benefits for both companies.

As you can imagine, the Brits didn't care much for me. I didn't know why at first. It wasn't until one of them said (paraphrasing, it's been years), "And who's this YankeePride fella? I've heard of national pride but no one here is walking around calling themselves EnglishPride."

So, after years being YankeePride and everyone around me understanding it meant this guy was a Yankee fan *******, I was now the American *******.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Funny(?) story.

A lot of regulars here know me from when I was YankeePride (or ******Pride )

I had been YP on other message boards as well. I won't name the place or company, but the message board associated with this game I play, merged with an English (as in British) company. With that came our names.

Adding to that, both sides of the pond were unhappy about this merger. So the message boards essentially turned into debates over the benefits for both companies.

As you can imagine, the Brits didn't care much for me. I didn't know why at first. It wasn't until one of them said (paraphrasing, it's been years), "And who's this YankeePride fella? I've heard of national pride but no one here is walking around calling themselves EnglishPride."

So, after years being YankeePride and everyone around me understanding it meant this guy was a Yankee fan *******, I was now the American *******.

Not quite the same premise. But I lived in Kentucky for a while(born in new york) I came over the state line to play baseball in Indiana, because quite frankly the leagues were much better.

But, my teammates used to joke I was a damn hillbilly because I lived in Kentucky, and they treated me different too, which is hilarious when I think of it now , but it started to piss me off, and eventually I called them ****ing Yanks. Ironic huh?

So to piggy back off redsox's post, yea someone could find that offensive, it just depends how hard you look for something.



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[Suntan Superman]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

But how can you just change the Redskins name? Such a iconic franchise in the NFL, it's been around for such a long time. If I'm a redskins fan, and they destroy the name, I would be royally pissed. Wouldn't you?

Now I admit, you can see the racial undertone in the name "Redskins" it's pretty blatant if you take time to think about it. But, destroying the name to appease certain individuals is going too far.

There needs to be the understanding too, that if individuals associate a team name and think it depicts a group of people, then that's just their own ignorance. But I personally never ever thought about these team names in any manner other then they were just cool mascot logos, until this discussion.

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Even as a kid I thought "Redskins" was questionable. It's literally a derogatory term for Native Americans. If it wasn't the name of a franchise, it'd probably be one of those words people don't say.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I don't understand how you can see how offensive the name is to a group of people, but then decide that the history of the franchise is more important than the way the people who are being exploited feel. Just bizarre to me.

In other news, my boy Chappie on his boat. How cool is this? I wish I could throw flames out of my left arm.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I usually don't comment on these discussions because this isn't what OS is for...but this has been quite a good discussion. I am of Cherokee descent (my great grandparents were 100%) and had relatives on the trail of tears, yet I find the obsession with finding sports logos to be offensive in our current society to be a waste of time. I have never seen a sports logo and felt it defined me or any other person...there are so many other things in this world to work on than asking/pushing for a change of these names/logos.

I understand if some are upset about it, but if we change things because people are upset/don't like them where does it stop? Someone will ALWAYS find something to not like about everything. Just my .02...

Probably because you're not a loser.

[BigOscar]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I have to say, as an englishmen, I find it bizarre that people try and argue that you can't change an offensive name of logo because it's been there a while, yet it's readily acceptable to pick up and move a team across the country. It's a very odd contrast to me, but in England the idea of moving a team is just about unthinkable, so obviously these things are viewed differently depending on where you grew up. (one team did it and is pretty universally despised and considered a joke)

The whole tradition argument seems more to just be an excuse to not "give in" to people who find it offensive, because a lot of people don't want to make any concessions in that area no matter what they are or how justified they may be. Team names have changed tons of times in the past, the logos have repeatedly changed, teams change kit colours, stadiums are renamed with the most ridiculously rubbish sounding sponsors and no one bats an eyelid, teams get moved thousands of miles if they think they can get more money by doing so. The only real objection seems to be that they don't want to change a name or logo for that reason.

If someone decided to change the Redskins name or the Indians logo for financial reasons, I doubt there'd be anything like the outcry.