MLB Off-Topic

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Benintendi's catch in the ALCS in Houston was named the AP Play of the Year.

Given the circumstances, it's hard to disagree.

But given the degree of difficulty, from the ones I can remember off the top of my head, I have to give it to Jackie Bradley Jr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlUOX1g2b5Q

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vlUOX1g2b5Q" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


All that said... no one can top Mark Buehrle!

[CMH]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Benintendi's catch in the ALCS in Houston was named the AP Play of the Year.

Not to take away from a really good play but I feel like these awards should be in season only.

Obviously the post season would ramp up the importance of a play which in my opinion always makes a post season play more likely to win. And that just feels wrong to me.

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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

The CF in Oakland chucking it from the warning track to get the double play at 1st was this year right? If so, that's the best play I remember.

[ShowTyme15]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

This F&*$%#@ guy..........

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/12/23/one-hall-of-fame-voter-chose-not-to-submit-his-ballot-at-all-because-of-mariano-rivera/

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I understand the guy's point being made, and furthermore even agree with it to an extent (my second-to-last post in this thread talks about that exact thing). But I do have two issues here:

1) Mariano Rivera is not the player that you choose to play the straw man role with for the closer position. His dominance is heads above the rest here.

2) Although I am happy he is going the way of abstention to protect Rivera's HOF approval percentage, I don't think writers should be able to use their voting power as a pedestal for their voice to be heard.

[SPTO]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

2) Although I am happy he is going the way of abstention to protect Rivera's HOF approval percentage, I don't think writers should be able to use their voting power as a pedestal for their voice to be heard.

First of all, I agree with your main point but I wanted to touch on this. While I sometimes shake my head at writers making some rather hare brained comments I don't mind well written and at least respectful articles. Unlike hockey and football the baseball writers don't sit in a room and talk out their choices so there's no real way to shape and influence decisions for the future. So in that respect i'm okay with Mr. Ballou's article. That being said, like you I don't think using Rivera as part of a straw man argument is helpful.

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

First of all, I agree with your main point but I wanted to touch on this. While I sometimes shake my head at writers making some rather hare brained comments I don't mind well written and at least respectful articles. Unlike hockey and football the baseball writers don't sit in a room and talk out their choices so there's no real way to shape and influence decisions for the future. So in that respect i'm okay with Mr. Ballou's article. That being said, like you I don't think using Rivera as part of a straw man argument is helpful.

To be fair, I actually didn't read his article; I just read the article that brought it up.

I'd agree with that. I just wish that the action wasn't spoken so loudly as for him to actually believe that Rivera is not deserving of the Hall of Fame. He is making a case as an example of it so it can be heard the loudest, though... whether he believes it or not, he's doing this in spite of Rivera's greatness.

Though once again, thankfully it can't impact the unanimity of Rivera's induction. Maybe he's doing wonders by it instead, saying "I'd rather surrender my ability to vote this year than vote if it means getting baseball to understand the misuse of the closer role."

And I think that's exactly it: baseball can have closers, but they shouldn't be relegated to pure ninth inning duties in save situations. I guarantee you that if you remove the save as a statistic or demean its importance of value, then closers would be used in much more impactful situations to the game, depending on what the analysts deem is best for them.

Then again, closers are already so brainwashed into their mindset only really working in "save situations" that it will take a long time to reprogram them otherwise anyway.

[SPTO]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

And I think that's exactly it: baseball can have closers, but they shouldn't be relegated to pure ninth inning duties in save situations. I guarantee you that if you remove the save as a statistic or demean its importance of value, then closers would be used in much more impactful situations to the game, depending on what the analysts deem is best for them.

It's interesting you've brought that up because we're slowly (very very slowly) seeing the closer being used more in the fireman role a la Rollie Fingers and Goose Gossage in tight pennant and playoff baseball. I don't think we're ever going to see closers used a lot in that way in the regular season but thanks to Terry Francona and some others, even the analytics inclined Craig Counsell using their closers in multiple innings or not even in the 9th inning at all. Heck, even locally here in Toronto John Gibbons intermittently used Osuna and even Ken Giles in 4 out save situations. I'm not sure if that thinking will continue under Montoyo but if an old school guy like Gibbons can stretch the closer role a bit I think anyone else should be comfortable with the notion.

Things are changing and It's definitely a lot different in usage from the La Russa or Buck Showalter mindset that way.

[CMH]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

My fear is if closers lose the save stat because managers use them differently, how do we expect these idiot voters to pick deserving relievers to the Hall?

This is my problem with the whole thing, and this goes back to Baines being elected and this ridiculous argument that DHs don't deserve to be in the Hall.

There are several positions in baseball and each has its role. The best players at EVERY position should be considered for their greatness.

I'm sure there are plenty people that will argue relievers don't throw 200 innings or win 300 games so they don't deserve to get in and I say you're an idiot just like the writers that argue the same.

Remove the save and Rivera isn't a Hall of Famer. Explain why that would make sense.


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[Jr.]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

My fear is if closers lose the save stat because managers use them differently, how do we expect these idiot voters to pick deserving relievers to the Hall?

This is my problem with the whole thing, and this goes back to Baines being elected and this ridiculous argument that DHs don't deserve to be in the Hall.

There are several positions in baseball and each has its role. The best players at EVERY position should be considered for their greatness.

I'm sure there are plenty people that will argue relievers don't throw 200 innings or win 300 games so they don't deserve to get in and I say you're an idiot just like the writers that argue the same.

Remove the save and Rivera isn't a Hall of Famer. Explain why that would make sense.


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I don't think that's true at all with the popularity of advanced stats. I don't think you need a stat like saves to know that Craig Kimbrel is one of the best relievers of all-time. The save stat is kind of dumb anyway. How can an outing where you strike out the side in a 1 run game be of the same value as giving up 2 run but preserving a 3 run lead? It's too arbitrary for my liking.

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Remove the save and Rivera isn't a Hall of Famer. Explain why that would make sense.

I was going with you till here. Who said this was the case? I actually was arguing way opposite of that: remove the save and Rivera's dominance still shows both on paper and with the eye test.

As far as "removing the save," I suggest that it either gets re-evaluated in what constitutes a save (part of it being that you don't have to close out a game, and unfortunately leaving a lot in the hands of the scorekeeper), or just appraise the hold that much more as far as inferences for its importance are concerned.

The fact remains no matter how many saves are very well executed, legitimately earned and necessary for the closer to enter that ninth inning spot, 95% of the time a closer who is seeing regular appearances will not enter said game until/unless a "save situation" occurs, and the manager is literally adhering to the statistic alone. It's like a basketball player trying to obtain a triple-double, passing to a double-teamed man when he has a wide open lane going for the assist.

I realize one could contend that it is a dire situation for them to be placed into the game, but I sit back and think about the times the closer is facing the #6, 7, and 8 hitters with nobody on and up by three runs versus that bases loaded jam just one hitter before; or when up by three runs with two outs, and a dominating lefty is dealing just to have a batter reach base from an error or wild pitch DTS, then with another lefty coming up the manager is like: "Oh, save situation? Time to bring the closer in." It's just stat-padding is what it is.

The statistic has lost its luster, and much like wins and losses they should really be ignored (or considered on the lower end of items) when determining Hall of Fame candidacy, save save percentage or something of another. I do recognize that the closer role is not something that just anybody could do, so Rivera's numbers should be looked at against others pitching in similar situations and such to show his clutch pitching factor... but we are oversaturating the closer market and belittling Rivera with these other imitators out there, and that's the point the writer is making. Unfortunately though, I think he's making a mistake doing this with/to Rivera by means of abstaining his vote.

[CMH]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I don't think that's true at all with the popularity of advanced stats. I don't think you need a stat like saves to know that Craig Kimbrel is one of the best relievers of all-time. The save stat is kind of dumb anyway. How can an outing where you strike out the side in a 1 run game be of the same value as giving up 2 run but preserving a 3 run lead? It's too arbitrary for my liking.

I don't disagree with you at all. I have no problem with removing the save or the idea of the closer.

But I disagree voters would select Kimbrell or Rivera into the HoF without the save stat.

It was already nearly impossible to get in as a reliever before the save became a huge stat. Heck, it's nearly just as impossible with the save.

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[CMH]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I was going with you till here. Who said this was the case? I actually was arguing way opposite of that: remove the save and Rivera's dominance still shows both on paper and with the eye test.



As far as "removing the save," I suggest that it either gets re-evaluated in what constitutes a save (part of it being that you don't have to close out a game, and unfortunately leaving a lot in the hands of the scorekeeper), or just appraise the hold that much more as far as inferences for its importance are concerned.



The fact remains no matter how many saves are very well executed, legitimately earned and necessary for the closer to enter that ninth inning spot, 95% of the time a closer who is seeing regular appearances will not enter said game until/unless a "save situation" occurs, and the manager is literally adhering to the statistic alone. It's like a basketball player trying to obtain a triple-double, passing to a double-teamed man when he has a wide open lane going for the assist.



I realize one could contend that it is a dire situation for them to be placed into the game, but I sit back and think about the times the closer is facing the #6, 7, and 8 hitters with nobody on and up by three runs versus that bases loaded jam just one hitter before; or when up by three runs with two outs, and a dominating lefty is dealing just to have a batter reach base from an error or wild pitch DTS, then with another lefty coming up the manager is like: "Oh, save situation? Time to bring the closer in." It's just stat-padding is what it is.



The statistic has lost its luster, and much like wins and losses they should really be ignored (or considered on the lower end of items) when determining Hall of Fame candidacy, save save percentage or something of another. I do recognize that the closer role is not something that just anybody could do, so Rivera's numbers should be looked at against others pitching in similar situations and such to show his clutch pitching factor... but we are oversaturating the closer market and belittling Rivera with these other imitators out there, and that's the point the writer is making. Unfortunately though, I think he's making a mistake doing this with/to Rivera by means of abstaining his vote.

The writer is an idiot if that's his point.

Not voting for Rivera because the save stat is overrated is exactly my point. He won't vote for Rivera because he thinks the save stat shouldn't be used in evaluating a reliever.

Great. So he chooses Rivera? Just proves my point. Without the save stat he would ignore Rivera as a great reliever.

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[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

^ Oh, I see. You were asking that "to the writer," not to anyone in particular in this conversation.

I'm hoping that he truly does think Rivera is a HOF player without the save stat, and he's just trying to make his case strongest here by using his ballot to speak on it (I mean I hope people in general don't do this, but in this particular instance I'm hoping he's otherwise not quite that delusional). If he truly think Rivera didn't belong in the HOF, he would have submitted his ballot without voting for him. I don't think the save number should detract from him opting whether or not to do that.

[PhilliesFan13]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

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