War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

[19]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

Brady Aiken had Tommy John surgery yesterday. I guess the Astros weren't crazy after all.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/brady-aiken--unsigned-no--1-draft-pick--announces-he-had-tommy-john-surgery-230613282.html

I still would have got him signed though.

[19]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

RP Aaron Crow, Miami Marlins... yep, Tommy John.

[acts238shaun]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

I think Nolan Ryan, Catfish Hunter and Billy Wagner had it right. If I am correct they were throwing at a young age, often every day. Billy Wagner threw 100 pitches everyday growing up. I know Hunter wasn't a flamethrower, but I believe all three were relatively injury free in their careers. Japan, those guys throw everyday, not many Tommy Johns. Braves in their heyday, very few injuries to the starters, they threw a lot under Mazzone. Throwing in the answer, not lifting - if you are a pitcher.

[Jr.]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

I think Nolan Ryan, Catfish Hunter and Billy Wagner had it right. If I am correct they were throwing at a young age, often every day. Billy Wagner threw 100 pitches everyday growing up. I know Hunter wasn't a flamethrower, but I believe all three were relatively injury free in their careers. Japan, those guys throw everyday, not many Tommy Johns. Braves in their heyday, very few injuries to the starters, they threw a lot under Mazzone. Throwing in the answer, not lifting - if you are a pitcher.

Maddux. Glavine, and Avery didn't throw hard enough to really hurt themselves. Smoltz had TJ and major shoulder surgery in his career.

I think Ryan was just a freak of nature. Throwing mid 90s into your 40s just isn't natural.

I know Wagner broke his right arm as a kid and taught himself to throw left handed during his teenage years. He also had elbow surgery in 2000 (not specified what kind of surgery on Wikipedia). He then tore his UCL in 2008.

It's pretty well known that Japanese pitchers struggle converting to starting every 5 days from starting once per week as they do in Japan. I read an article about Darvish that says most scouts/GMs believe there is a 3 year window before Japanese pitchers break down, once they come to the MLB (Kuroda is really the only one to beat that).

It's a difficult thing. Do you want to stay healthy, throw in the upper 80s/low 90s and fight an uphill battle to make the majors? Or do you risk injury, get stronger, throw in the mid-upper 90s, and have a higher chance of making it to the top?

[Hockeynut99]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY reale

What a 6 man rotation help in saving these arms?

[redsox4evur]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY reale

What a 6 man rotation help in saving these arms?

I don't think so. I think it starts with when these kids are in Little League. These coaches are teaching these kids to throw curveballs at that young of an age. And in turn that could be a cause for it. I mean look at the 50's and 60's you had guys throwing like 10-20 complete games per year. Bob Gibson is a perfect example. In the 60's he never threw LESS than 10 complete games in a season and least amount of games he pitched in a season during the 60's was 1967 when he pitched in 24 games. And to my knowledge he never had TJ Surgery.

[Hockeynut99]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

You don't think they were throwing curves in little league in the 50's or 60's?

[Jr.]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY reale

I don't think so. I think it starts with when these kids are in Little League. These coaches are teaching these kids to throw curveballs at that young of an age. And in turn that could be a cause for it. I mean look at the 50's and 60's you had guys throwing like 10-20 complete games per year. Bob Gibson is a perfect example. In the 60's he never threw LESS than 10 complete games in a season and least amount of games he pitched in a season during the 60's was 1967 when he pitched in 24 games. And to my knowledge he never had TJ Surgery.

Plenty of studies have shown that throwing a curveball is no more detrimental to the arm than throwing a fastball.

The problem at the youth level is travel ball and coaching to win, so the best pitchers throw upwards of 10-15 innings in a weekend. Do that all year, with maybe 2 months off for the winter, and kids are being overused.

[Hockeynut99]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

So the thing is traveling teams? Did they not have that in the 60's? Or 70's?

[redsox4evur]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY reale

Plenty of studies have shown that throwing a curveball is no more detrimental to the arm than throwing a fastball.

The problem at the youth level is travel ball and coaching to win, so the best pitchers throw upwards of 10-15 innings in a weekend. Do that all year, with maybe 2 months off for the winter, and kids are being overused.

Hmmm you learn something everyday. But the travel thing does make sense. And depending on the state where you live it may not even be 2 months off. You may get a month off total through days here and there around big holidays, ie Christmas, Hanukkah, Thanksgiving, Independence Day, etc. But it's definitely an issue of overuse.

And Hockeynight they did but you didn't have the same kid throwing 10-12 innings each weekend every weekend for a year. Pitching a game for their travel team and then local little league team the next day.

[Jr.]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

So the thing is traveling teams? Did they not have that in the 60's? Or 70's?

They did not. Travel baseball really exploded in the 90s. Now, it's becoming more and more popular for kids to play on travel teams in the Spring, rather than for their high school. They play Spring, Summer, Fall, and sometimes Winter where it's warm enough.

Kids are specializing earlier and earlier, and throwing more and more. With the added focus on learning how to throw hard, rather than learning to pitch, kids are becoming a ticking time bomb.

[Bunselpower32]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

First of all, curveballs and sliders are tougher on the arm, if they aren't taught the right mechanics. The frustrated high school dads who blew out THEIR arms because they were taught wrong teaching little League is a travesty. Plus, I'm not going to completely change my mind because of one scientific study, because these days you can tweak data to say anything.

More on point, there is a negative feedback loop in baseball, and it involves strikeouts and home runs. There were always strikeouts. But recently, a premium has been placed upon the long ball, and the pitching equivalent of the home run, the strikeout. Guys are swinging harder to pump up those power numbers, and in true high risk high reward fashion, they strikeout more. Wouldn't you know it, pitchers know this, and are throwing harder to get more strikeouts. Pitchers long ago pitched to contact, ie, they put a premium on location instead of velocity. As such, they could pitch much longer than those today.

Just for kicks, I went to the single season K/9 leaders on mlb.com to test my theory. Look at the concentration of those players in the 2000s, a decade not fully through its 15th year. Shocking how many there are.

If we taught location above velocity combined with proper arm mechanics, this wouldn't be an issue. But the draw of getting just one million dollar deal is enough to make kids completely forego their health and kill their arms.

[Jr.]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

First of all, curveballs and sliders are tougher on the arm, if they aren't taught the right mechanics. The frustrated high school dads who blew out THEIR arms because they were taught wrong teaching little League is a travesty. Plus, I'm not going to completely change my mind because of one scientific study, because these days you can tweak data to say anything.

Where is the study that says throwing curveballs (not sliders, different pitch, we were specifically talking about curveballs) are harder on the arm? You brush off science that goes against your point, but don't back up your sentiment with any.

Of course poor mechanics will screw up the arm, but that's true of throwing any pitch with poor mechanics. It's not exclusive to a breaking ball.

More on point, there is a negative feedback loop in baseball, and it involves strikeouts and home runs. There were always strikeouts. But recently, a premium has been placed upon the long ball, and the pitching equivalent of the home run, the strikeout. Guys are swinging harder to pump up those power numbers, and in true high risk high reward fashion, they strikeout more. Wouldn't you know it, pitchers know this, and are throwing harder to get more strikeouts. Pitchers long ago pitched to contact, ie, they put a premium on location instead of velocity. As such, they could pitch much longer than those today.

Just for kicks, I went to the single season K/9 leaders on mlb.com to test my theory. Look at the concentration of those players in the 2000s, a decade not fully through its 15th year. Shocking how many there are.

This is very true. It's just about impossible to break into the Majors throwing under 90 mph. I don't think this is "your theory" however. Plenty of people have noted the proliferation of private coaching, strength training, and a focus on velocity as a reason for the increase in pitcher injuries (I said as much myself in my post just above yours, but it's definitely not my theory either).

If we taught location above velocity combined with proper arm mechanics, this wouldn't be an issue. But the draw of getting just one million dollar deal is enough to make kids completely forego their health and kill their arms.

I do have a feeling scouting will go back to this method. Looking for a kid that can hit spots, understands sequences, and seems to really know how to pitch. But everyone is awed by high velocity and every coach thinks they can teach a kid who throws 95, how to pitch.

[Bunselpower32]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

Yes, bad mechanics will screw up no matter the pitch, but a poorly thrown curve usually involves the player using the elbow to get the spin. That's why it's worse.

And I didn't claim myself to be the first, but I didn't do any research into the matter other than just being a student of the game. So I arrived there myself, just not first.

And that's what the game is becoming, a really flashy and superficial experience, with players being so ignorant of fundamentals that it's becoming tough to watch. If they add the DH I'm not gonna be happy.

[ZB9]

Re: War on Pitchers...It may be VERY real

It's a really weird trend. The only thing that i can think of is that they are much quicker to recommend TJ surgery now. It has suddenly gone from a last resort to a first resort.