2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

So, LaRoche is finally gone. What a horrible stint he had with us, just nothing but a disappointment the whole time he was here. Getting a SS in the deal hopefully means Wilson will be next. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of interest over Doumit, so I'd say hold onto him until the offseason.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I kind of thought LaRoche got a bad wrap. People used some of the same arguments on him that they used on Jason Bay (not clutch especially) when really his numbers were similar with RISP and so on. Not that I think "clutchness" is a real thing, but regardless the numbers weren't very different.

I think people just get down on him because of the hot and cold streaks, especially because of where they would happen during a season. You're always going to get called out more when you start out cold, rather than going cold for a month or two during the middle of the season -- like Nate did last year.

Not that I think it was bad to trade him (I like Pearce and am happy to see him get a shot), but it just seems odd that LaRoche is the one most of the "yinzers" support, whereas they have cried wolf when it comes to Nate, Nady, Bay.

As for Argenio, obviously a plus-plus glove, but he makes Jack Wilson's bat look All-Star caliber. I still wouldn't mind if Jack came back next year because I don't think Diaz will be ready quite yet -- not that his bat will ever be good -- and Jack has quietly had his best fielding year and had a league-average bat for the SS position as well. I would still obviously trade him, but I think he's one of those guys that may be more valuable to the Pirates and so his return would be less than his worth.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Agree with Chase. I discussed this topic on another board with 3 of those yinzers who cried foul over the Nate trade. They were upset with the return the Pirates got for Nate (thought it should have been more) and were upset that Nate was traded because they thought he was a superstar. These 3 also hated LaRoche and were happy to see him go. Playing devil's advocate, I posted Nate and Adam's offensive stats last year side by side. Even to my surprise, they weren't much different. I even mentioned I didn't know why I was posting the stats because I knew these individuals wouldn't pay any attention. The responses I received were golden...most starting with "I don't know why you took the time to type out those stats either because Nate was clearly better". When I asked why Nate was better, these are a few of the responses:

1. Nate made the All Star Team
2. Nate nearly hit one into the river on a fly and Adam never came close
3. Nate looked more interested while playing
4. Nate tried harder and gave more effort
5. Nate was a better base stealer
6. Adam plays a position that requires more offensive output, Nate did not.
7. Nate was more liked by the fans and teammates
8. Adam only hits 1/2 a season...he'll never be any good hitting only 1/2 a season (when I pointed out Nate only hit 1/2 a season last year, I was told that could not have been true)

Needless to say, I was baffled at most of the responses. I've been talking baseball with these guys for 10 years now and while I expected a few clueless responses from them, I certainly didn't expect those type of responses. It goes to show that what Chase posted holds a lot of merit IMO. Adam got a bad wrap here and I think a lot of that was due to the way he started most seasons.

Anywho... enough of that. I think the Pirates have a few potentially interesting moves on their hands. It's been said in the media that Jack, Snell, Capps and Sanchez have been involved in trade discussions, but the return for these players has not been what the Pirates want. I still think a few of them will be traded so it will be interesting to see what the return is.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Sounds like the Cubs and Rangers are interested in Duke....Pittsburgh is asking for a lot though, which is understandable since he's younger than Cliff Lee and has a good contract. I would prefer a trade with the Rangers since the Cubs system is pretty much barren (probably only better than the Nats and Astros systems.) Texas has the best minor league system in the MLB, though, I'd say Oakland is very close to that top spot now.

Cubs also possibly interested in Freddy and Grabow -- if the Cubs get Grabow I would think they don't acquire Duke and instead move Sean Marshall to the rotation.

Still wouldn't be surprised to see Capps or Maholm dealt, although Capps has probably damaged his value this year -- I was adamant about trading him last year before the rest of the league caught on, but alas.

Much like Capps, Doumit's value is probably spotty because he has been injured all year.

Yankee scouts were at Snell's minor league game today. (Apparently Huntington is getting low-ball offers for Snell, so while they don't want to stomach his 4 million dollar guaranteed contract, they don't want to give up on him either. Unfortunately Ian says he has no interest in ever returning to Pittsburgh. Odd situation).

Either way, I'm expecting at least one more mid-to-major level deal that involves the Pirates. It just would be weird if they didn't move at least another big piece since now they have almost gone all the way with it.

PS, some good news on the drafting front recently was that 7th round pitcher Trent Stevenson signed for below what many thought it would take to sign him away from school ($350,000). It also appears the other two prospects in the triumvirate of tough prep signings that went from 7-9 are willing to sign. 9th round pick Colton Cain apparently does not want to go to Texas, but did turn down the Pirates firs offer. 8th round pick Zack Von Rosenberg also has been talked to. I would expect both of these guys to want around Quinton Miller money ($900,000).

4th round pick Zack Dodson (another prep pitcher) also appears ready to sign, but is just waiting for a good offer from the Pirates.

If the Pirates even get just three of these guys, it will do a ton to strengthen the sparse pitching depth they currently have, although obviously all of them would be 3-4 years away.

I also expect at least one other of their tough later signing (Urban, den Dekker, Dermody, etc. to sign before the deadline). I'm hopeful that after spending a bunch on Pedro and a strong hitting class last year, they will be able to get more talent this year in the pitching department. I think a year or two from now we'll be looking at one of the better systems around -- hopefully they keep that going for year after year after it's set up.

PS, in case you didn't notice, Sano has been partially cleared (MLB concluded he's probably 17 rather than 16 but it's still inconclusive) but now he has to get into the US and go through a similar process to ensure he's not lying about his age. If he is lying, then he won't be allowed in the country. All signs point to Sano wanting to sign with the Pirates, but his agent wants him to sign with whoever offers the most money.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I kind of thought LaRoche got a bad wrap. People used some of the same arguments on him that they used on Jason Bay (not clutch especially) when really his numbers were similar with RISP and so on. Not that I think "clutchness" is a real thing, but regardless the numbers weren't very different.

I think people just get down on him because of the hot and cold streaks, especially because of where they would happen during a season. You're always going to get called out more when you start out cold, rather than going cold for a month or two during the middle of the season -- like Nate did last year.

Not that I think it was bad to trade him (I like Pearce and am happy to see him get a shot), but it just seems odd that LaRoche is the one most of the "yinzers" support, whereas they have cried wolf when it comes to Nate, Nady, Bay.

As for Argenio, obviously a plus-plus glove, but he makes Jack Wilson's bat look All-Star caliber. I still wouldn't mind if Jack came back next year because I don't think Diaz will be ready quite yet -- not that his bat will ever be good -- and Jack has quietly had his best fielding year and had a league-average bat for the SS position as well. I would still obviously trade him, but I think he's one of those guys that may be more valuable to the Pirates and so his return would be less than his worth.

People get down on LaRoche because when we traded for him, we traded for a guy who was supposed to have 30/100 potential for every season. Yet every season he barely got out of the gate, and then he would go on his horrible cold streaks.

I believe in "clutch". There's a reason why someone like Albert leads the league in game winning RBI's every season, despite playing in a formerly horrible lineup around him. Some guys just know how to step it up and hit with runners on. I know what you'll say "Well, a hitter is a hitter, regardless of if there's men on base or not..." but you see so many guys put up decent offensive numbers, while doing horrible with RISP. Not to say those guys suck or something, but obviously a guy who consistently hits with RISP is more valuable than a guy who doesn't.

Adam rarely delivered with men on base. People always bash the Pirates lineup, yet they have plenty of scoring opportunities that they've blown over the past few seasons, simply because guys like LaRoche don't hit in those spots.

Nate had more value than LaRoche. He's younger, and he has a dimension to his game that LaRoche does not. He's a run producer, he can steal a base and hit for power. While I agree, he's not a superstar or anything, they got a fine return for him, people in Pittsburgh loved him and overvalued him so much.

I'm actually kind of with Chase on this Jack Wilson thing. Once his contract is up, if we can get him for reasonable money this time, and not the horrible contract he's on now, I'd say do it. They're not going to find a better solution for the position, if the money is right then why not? I'm with you on the fact that his value to the Pirates wouldn't be worth what they get in return for him. So we maybe another midlevel prospect or two, that does nothing for the club.

A trade with the Rangers would work for me. Unless the Cubs are offering Josh Vitters for someone, I wouldn't listen to anything they're saying.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

People get down on LaRoche because when we traded for him, we traded for a guy who was supposed to have 30/100 potential for every season. Yet every season he barely got out of the gate, and then he would go on his horrible cold streaks.

I believe in "clutch". There's a reason why someone like Albert leads the league in game winning RBI's every season, despite playing in a formerly horrible lineup around him. Some guys just know how to step it up and hit with runners on. I know what you'll say "Well, a hitter is a hitter, regardless of if there's men on base or not..." but you see so many guys put up decent offensive numbers, while doing horrible with RISP. Not to say those guys suck or something, but obviously a guy who consistently hits with RISP is more valuable than a guy who doesn't.

Adam rarely delivered with men on base. People always bash the Pirates lineup, yet they have plenty of scoring opportunities that they've blown over the past few seasons, simply because guys like LaRoche don't hit in those spots.

Nate had more value than LaRoche. He's younger, and he has a dimension to his game that LaRoche does not. He's a run producer, he can steal a base and hit for power. While I agree, he's not a superstar or anything, they got a fine return for him, people in Pittsburgh loved him and overvalued him so much.

I'm actually kind of with Chase on this Jack Wilson thing. Once his contract is up, if we can get him for reasonable money this time, and not the horrible contract he's on now, I'd say do it. They're not going to find a better solution for the position, if the money is right then why not? I'm with you on the fact that his value to the Pirates wouldn't be worth what they get in return for him. So we maybe another midlevel prospect or two, that does nothing for the club.

A trade with the Rangers would work for me. Unless the Cubs are offering Josh Vitters for someone, I wouldn't listen to anything they're saying.

Your Adam LaRoche statement is incorrect:

Adam LaRoche career average: .265
Career RISP: .263
RISP w/2 outs: .264
Man on 3rd, 2 outs or less: .336
Men on, 2 outs: .262

Jason Bay career RISP: .284

(I only put in Jason Bay because he received the same type of treatment: "not clutch")

LaRoche is hitting .214 with RISP this year, he hit .313 with RISP in his first year with the Pirates, and then the second year essentially mimics the above averages, which would come back out to around the .260 average once again.

The Pujols comparison is tricky. Pujols is a god, and his career RISP is something like .370, and his regular average is around .325. The problem is Pujols destroys all hitting, and with RISP you tend to have to pitch to him more often -- his bases loaded average is around .750, no joke. Pujols hits everything, so if you can't make him chase or swing at something that isn't his pitch (see: times when you can afford to walk him) then you will get burned. That doesn't make Pujols "clutch" it just means he's a good hitter who gets more pitches to hit in certain situations. Pujols is the best hitter alive, so of course he's going to lead in pretty much every statistic (clutch or otherwise) because he's that good. It's not really fair to say therefore clutch = truth because of superstars like Pujols.

I'm not trying to really even debate the clutch statistics either, at least not here -- I'm just talking about the Pirates. And clutch statistics are legitimate (how someone hits in later innings or with RISP etc. are fair game) but I think "clutch factor" gets misconstrued by many and so people just say it to say it.

And yes I remember when Adam came to Pittsburgh and they called him the Lefty McThump for the lineup (a thing that was started by beat writer Dejan K. I believe before LaRoche even came to town for the hypothetical left-handed hitter the Pirates desired). But I'm not blaming Adam for the hype, you point to management in that case. LaRoche isn't a middle of the order hitter. He hit 7th if I'm not mistaken in Atlanta, and never was meant to be a 4-5 hole hitter. He was typecast as something he wasn't.

Beyond that, I get the point about Nate being more valuable, and I never argued that either. He is younger, he has a manageable contract, he plays an average CF defensively (well below average last year), and if you take his position into account, he did average out to be a top 10 CFer last year (he's not this year, at least at this point) -- and I still contend he's a corner OFer, even though his UZR (a defensive metric) is back in the positive this year after playing deeper in CF. But once again that Gold Glove last year was a sham.

(PS, Nate McLouth career average: .261...RISP career average: .254.)

LaRoche is not a top 10 guy at his position, but hey never argued that either. I understand the frustration with cold streaks, and as I pointed out earlier, he was an easy target because he tended to start slow (except this year).

And yeah, I like Jack if they restructure his contract (2 years, 8 mill is the absolute max I would give him -- but under any circumstances, do not pick up his 2010 player option). However, if they could get two mid-level prospects back for him, I would still take that deal. I just don't see anyone giving that up for Jack. The only situation I see him bringing a solid return is if he's packaged with another player.

And yeah, the Cubs system is a bit of a mess. Vitters is obviously the surest thing that system has, but even he is no lock. He hit for some power -- which was one of my question marks -- but he's now struggling at High-A ball (less than 100 AB though) and his K/BB numbers have been spotty. But don't get me wrong, I still like him as a prospect. I like 4-5 of their other minor league guys as well, but I don't know how many would be on the table.

Texas just seems like a team that, while more protective of its system lately (plus weaseled a ton from the Braves), can swallow the blow of giving a bit more to get a solid pitcher with a manageable salary.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Nate had more value than LaRoche. He's younger, and he has a dimension to his game that LaRoche does not. He's a run producer, he can steal a base and hit for power. While I agree, he's not a superstar or anything, they got a fine return for him, people in Pittsburgh loved him and overvalued him so much.

I agree that Nate had more value than LaRoche, but when discussing this with others, I was pinpointing offensive production. Overall, Nate was the better player...although I do think he was very much overrated in Pittsburgh. People made him out to be a superstar CF'er who would easily punch his ticket to the HOF in X years. That was always a bit laughable to me. Don't get me wrong, I liked Nate as a player, but thought it was a good idea to trade high on him. It's why I also wouldn't mind seeing the Pirates trade Duke this year.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I'm not trying to really even debate the clutch statistics either, at least not here -- I'm just talking about the Pirates. And clutch statistics are legitimate (how someone hits in later innings or with RISP etc. are fair game) but I think "clutch factor" gets misconstrued by many and so people just say it to say it.

Those are pretty much my sentiments too.

So Andy LaRoche is going to be our RBI leader by seasons end, and at best, he'll have like 65-70 RBI's. Man that's just kind of sad. Pedro can't get here soon enough. They just got destroyed in two games by the DBacks, who are hardly a scary team or something.

I'm not worried about the offense, because with McCutchen in place, and Pedro on the horizon, you know it's going to get a lot better within the next two seasons. Those two alone are going to make it that much better, so I think people can stop panicking about how we're being shutout.

The real question is, are they going to have a rotation? We know that Ohlendorf/McCutchen/Karstens can all be backend guys, so no problems there. We know Duke can at least be a number 2 starter, although Charlie Morton certainly has the stuff to be that as well. But can Lincoln be that big ace that they're lacking? Will Bryan Morris? Will Jeff Locke? Morris has been a mess this year.


I saw the minor league report in the paper on Sunday, Pedro still putting up the great power numbers but struggling with the K/BB. Someone in this thread a few pages back brought up how McCutchen was suffering from the same type of problems in AA/AAA, and he turned out fine, which is a good point, so I'm not so worried. And at worst, if Pedro came up and belted a ton of HR's and drove in a bunch of RBI's, but K'd 160 times a year, oh well. No one seems to mind that Adam Dunn/Ryan Howard do. Plus in the Pirates lineup, Pedro is going to walk a ton, so that will give him great experience at the plate.

Lastings Milledge is doing pretty solid too, hopefully he can put it together. We definitely could use him in one of the corner OF spots.

Lincoln got beat up in one of his starts, so his ERA ballooned a little, but he's still pacing a very promising season.

Snells numbers are pretty great, but he doesn't want to play for the Pirates anymore or he's going to hang himself...so who knows what happens there.

Tony Sanchez is performing well offensively in low A ball. It's low A though, so nothing to get too excited about.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Yeah the pitching in the minors is a tricky thing. Locke is still struggling this year, Morris has been hurt (really the goal for him just finish the year healthy and try to pitch deep into a couple games -- he looked good in his last start. I think he may end up as a power reliever because of the injury issues, but not giving up on him yet.)

Lincoln struggled in his first few starts at Triple A (just like he struggled during his first few Double A starts) but has pitched well lately.

Rudy Owens has been a nice surprise, but he's already something like 40 innings over his max output from the year before, so he'll probably be shutdown for the year soon enough -- and he's only at West Virginia right now. But his numbers are silly at that level, and his emergence is huge because the Pirates really didn't have any LHP prospects until they traded for Locke and Owens put together this season.

Uviedo is a power arm who was converted back into a starter this year, and he has looked great in that role. He got hurt, but he's now about to return to Lynchburg. I think he's a sleeper.

Gorzo will be back in Pittsburgh soon for Virgil I would think since he has found his ability to K people again, though, the walks are still high. They are just keeping him down at this point to avoid activating his third arbitration year (speculation on my part but it makes sense). I expect him to be back near the end of August.

Daniel McCutchen will get a chance at some point.

Quinton Miller is in his first pro season and has shown some flashes to this point. His velocity was hovering around 91-93 when he signed out of high school last year, but now he's starting to touch 95, so that's a good sign.

I like Morton and think as long as he controls the walks he'll be good to go. I still like Ohlendorf too.

That's most of the major SP prospects that I can think of off hand. I see Bloom as more of a reliever, and the same goes for Moskos. Dumatrait could still be a wild card if he gets healthy as well.

Snell is not pitching in Pittsburgh again, so it's a whatever thing.

Last year was a very strong hitting class, so the Pirates really didn't get many starting pitchers that will make an impact. They drafted the best players rather than reaching for pitchers, which I like. This year was a strong pitching class, and the Pirates went hard after a ton of pitchers, especially ones with signability issues. I think after the signing deadline we will have a better idea of what's in the system, and what to expect -- though obviously most will be at least 3-4 seasons away.

---------

The hitting prospects are clearly more heralded than the pitching ones, but for good reason. A strong draft last year by the Pirates, as well as the some of the bats they have acquired are at higher levels than most of the pitchers who could make an impact in a few years.

Tabata looks great, and seems to finally have his legs back. His contact rate is astounding, and I think he's pretty much a lock to hit .300 at the MLB level now. I still want to see the power increase (I'm hoping for 20 HRs rather than the Manny comparisons have made to him) with good speed, high OBP and plus defense from a corner OF spot. His average is over .300 at Altoona now, and that Altoona lineup is actually pretty awesome now, at least 1-4.Oh, and he's only 20.

Pedro is still nailing home runs, but yes the K/BB ratio is the thing to watch. He's always going to strike out a ton, but you just want to see that strikeout ratio drop down a bit. He seems to be improving in that department in his last handful of games, so hopefully it's a sign of things to come. Either way, after his slow start at Altoona, he's got the average back around .300 and has actually not made an error in quite a few games, so maybe he can stick at third base for at least a few seasons before he becomes a blimp, Miguel Cabrera style.

Gorkys Hernandez still has potential, but I'm kind of thinking of him as a 4th outfielder unless he can effectively steal a ton of bases (see: be the opposite of Nyjer Morgan) or actually starts to hit with a bit more power. I just don't think he'll hit for enough average or do any one thing very well with the bat to make up for his hitting deficiencies. That being said, he has a great glove -- reportedly as good or better than Cutch -- so he has that going for him.

Brian Friday is interesting. His spike in power is intriguing but potentially misleading. If his back holds up though, he still has potential and could play some 2B at the MLB level.

Lastings Milledge will probably be a September call up (unless some trade happens) so he can work on the refinements the Pirates have given to him. That's totally fine as he is only 24 and has been doing and saying all the right things at Indy (his OBP is insane right now). He also needs to work on his defense, which everyone agrees is the only part of his game that is not MLB quality.

Bixler I think is a non-SS prospect now, but has shown a power spike lately.

Shelby Ford has flopped at Triple A, but he still had enough prospect status to get a pass for one year. If he doesn't improve a lot next year he won't be able to hit enough to play a MLB 2B.

Neil Walker has a plus glove for 3rd, but his bat has not come around. Probably a non prospect at this point.

Argenio Diaz has a ++plus glove, but right now he makes Jack Wilson's bat look great, so he needs to work on getting on base more at the very least.

Jordy Mercer is the 3rd-round SS pick from last year. He's been a bit disappointing at Lynchburg, and it's magnified now that two other picks (Cunningham and D'Arnaud) got hurt and are probably out for the year -- they both looked very promising so hopefully they make full recoveries. Cunningham had ACL surgery before the year started and he definitely is out for the year.

Huber (OFer) Watts (catcher) are a little old to be major prospects, but both are playing very well at Lynchburg. Huber was just recently promoted to Lynchburg.

Starling Marte has been super impressive since he got promoted to West Virginia. He was the Dominican Summer League MVP, and as a 20-year-old in his first pro ball taste is hitting .340 showing amazing speed, some power and a ++glove in CF. He has really filled into his body and seems like an actual prospect.

Robbie Grossman has shown off his five tools, including a 6th (an impressive ability to draw walks in his first full year in pro ball as a 19 year old). He could be a "seven tool" guy at the end of the day. His K rate would be more scary if he wasn't 19.

Sanchez is yes mauling the ball (hitting .360) but is only playing a few times a week, not sure why on that front. I assume they want to move him up, but they just have too many catchers right now throughout the system (obviously most don't have much of a future but you don't just cut guys). They may also be working on a few things defensively with him and hence why he isn't playing every day.

Quincy Latimore has been on a tear recently, which makes the OF of Marte, Grossman and Latimore the most intriguing trio to watch in the Pirates minors. He has been showing off the power lately at West Virginia as well. I'm a little surprised he isn't stealing more bases since he does seem to have good speed. He's also 19 like Grossman.

There's also Wes Freeman and Gift Ngoepe in the GCL, as well as a couple other players who are in the Venezuelan Summer League that I could go into, but I think I've shown the hitting in the system is way more promising than the pitching for now. That all could change in August though.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I forgot about Gorzelanny. He's been bouncing back pretty well. Again, another guy I don't think will ever be a top starter for them or anything, but he could fill a 3-5 role very well.

Lets just no longer mention Brian Bixler ever again.

I think people didn't realize how young Milledge was when we traded for him. Since he's been up for a couple of seasons, people assumed he was an older failed prospect. Hell, even I thought he was like 26 for some reason until theye listed his age. He's got plenty of time to turn it around, and surely looks to be doing so.

Forgot about Gorkys too. I think they'll definitely find a role for him on this team. He would make an awesome 4th outfielder/off the bench type of guy, if that's the only role they can find for him. With a future outfield most likely being McCutchen, Milledge, Tabata, I would expect Gorkys isn't going to get a starting spot. Having Gorkys/Moss on the bench wouldn't be bad at all though.

I still don't like the idea of Pedro being a third baseman. They should of moved him to first by now, just to get him ready. I don't want to see him come up at third, and then suddenly get moved to first in the middle of a season like they had to do with Miggy in Detroit, since it screwed up his game for a bit. Plus, you got Andy LaRoche having a solid season for his first in the bigs, I expect him to only get better, and I don't think he's going to get better if he's benched for Pedro.

Position player-wise, they have a good amount of talent in the farm. A couple of potential superstars, and a bunch of guys who can fill roles that they need to fill. I think Huntington has done a fine job rebuilding the farm so far. You kind of wish that they had some more elite pitching prospects, but hell, I'm glad he's drafted the way he has. I'd rather have Pedro than a pitcher, I'd rather have Sanchez than a pitcher. I think it's the right strategy to take the best player, or at least the player who can help your team most, over the best pitcher available. At least for the past few drafts I've felt that way. It might finally be time to go after a pitcher high, but I can kind of understand why they don't. With Boras trying to get number 1 NFL Draft pick money for his clients, at least the Pirates are simply not drafting those players and instead drafting guys they intend to sign, as opposed to drafting them and then battling about the contract until they eventually don't sign the player.

[BurghFan]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I think what people are getting sick of is the Pirates always trading away their best players. And half of the time they get nobody in return (see Jody Gerut, had a bum knee before the Pirates acquired him and went on the DL very soon after, hardly played at all for the Pirates) And there's been plenty of other transactions that didn't pan out over the years (Mondesi, that infielder who's name escapes me at the moment). They keep saying they're building for the future, but 16 (soon to be 17) straight losing seasons is ridiculous. I was in 6th grade when the Pirates won the NL East in '92. I often wonder if the coaching has been part of the problem as well. It seems that a number of players who the Pirates trade away actually become better with their new teasms, especially pitchers (Suppan, Wakefield). And the Pirates pitching is so inconsistent. When was the last time they kept the same starting rotation for the majority of a season?

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I think what people are getting sick of is the Pirates always trading away their best players. And half of the time they get nobody in return (see Jody Gerut, had a bum knee before the Pirates acquired him and went on the DL very soon after, hardly played at all for the Pirates) And there's been plenty of other transactions that didn't pan out over the years (Mondesi, that infielder who's name escapes me at the moment). They keep saying they're building for the future, but 16 (soon to be 17) straight losing seasons is ridiculous. I was in 6th grade when the Pirates won the NL East in '92. I often wonder if the coaching has been part of the problem as well. It seems that a number of players who the Pirates trade away actually become better with their new teasms, especially pitchers (Suppan, Wakefield). And the Pirates pitching is so inconsistent. When was the last time they kept the same starting rotation for the majority of a season?

It's one thing to say you're rebuilding, it's another to actually do it. The past two management teams never actually went through with the rebuilding, whereas the current regime is actually doing that.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Yeah. People still confuse Dave Littlefield with Neal Huntington. What you saw from Dave Littlefield was salary dumping and trying to keep the cheapest losing team possible.

You don't trade Aramis Ramirez when he's a young guy and STARTING to peak, for a handful of "prospects" who never did anything at all. It made absolutely no sense. You don't trade for a washed up Matt Morris and his 10 million dollar salary for no reason. You don't draft bum pitcher after bum pitcher. You certainly don't draft Dan Moskos. You don't do any of these things if you're "rebuilding."

You do what Neal Huntington has done. In two seasons he has this team poised to win more so than Littlefield did at any point.

Although coaching is a big concern of mine. I think part of the reason they've had so many failures is a poor, poor coaching staff from the top to bottom of their organization. You see so many mechnical problems in players that come up through their system.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Pirates came up with another nice little coup today by sending Ian Snell and Jack Wilson (plus all but $400,000 of each contract for this year) for C/1B Jeff Clement, SS Ronny Cedeno, and pitchers Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin and Nathan Adcock.

Ronny Cedeno is a stop-gap for now and keeps Argenis Diaz in the minors where he needs to be for now. He's pretty bad with the stick, but it's a whatever type portion to the deal. Jack Wilson > Cedeno.

Clement is 26 now, but was the former third pick and has been jerked around by Seattle management much like Adam Jones was. I think of this kind of like Milledge, where a team kind of just gave up on him. So much like Tabata or Lastings, it looks like the Pirates are swooping in to see if Clement can still go...I'm surprised the Pirates didn't get Wladimir too.

He does have bad knees so the position is an issue. It's debatable if his bat is good enough to carry an iffy glove at 1B, but he still raced through the minors before not being given the DH spot this year -- Griffey and Sweeney got it instead, which I think was probably the wrong call. The Mariners were about to try him again at catcher, but I assume his future is at 1B. He has an .870 OPS this year and pretty much just needs a chance to play every day. He also had 1.131 OPS in '08 at Triple A. I take him as a guy who is probably bored of being stuck in baseball purgatory at this point.

Right now the Pirates can't give him that, so he'll head to Triple A -- they need to give Pearce his shot (and that's the right thing to do since I still think Pearce can swing the bat). But right now it looks like we will have 3-4 starters next year who are in Triple A right now, which is pretty interesting to follow.

I would think he would probably be up now if the Pirates didn't have to play Garrett Jones -- move Pearce to the OF and let Clement play first. I still would bench Garrett to get Clement and Pearce up and playing now, regardless of Jones' start. I still don't buy that Jones will keep anything close to this up because the track record doesn't match up. I think it's more of a Duffy/Redman type thing going on.

At worst, I think Clement is a guy who platoons and mashes right-handed pitching at 1B (I question his ability to hit left handers still).

Aaron Pribanic was the Mariners third-round pick last year who is 22. I believe he will be heading to West Virgina (A ball). He looks to be a ground ball pitcher who is doing just OK in his first pro season. The strikeout totals may be low because he doesn't have a strikeout pitch (at least not yet) but his ERA is 3.20 and he does have a plus changeup.

Brett Lorin will probably be joining Pribanic in the West Virginia rotation. He's a bit different from Pribanic as he throws very hard (mid-90s), is more of a fly ball pitcher, and averages about a strikeout per inning. He was the Mariners fifth-round pick last year. He also fits Neal's mold of going for tall pitchers as he is 6'7. He had a 2.44 ERA. I think Lorin is the best player in this deal.

Nathan Adcock is 21 and he'll probably be heading to the starting rotation in Lynchburg (High A). He averaged a strikeout per inning last year, but was not doing quite that well at High Desert. For the record his ERA is 5.29 this year BUT anything below 6 at High Desert is considered good because that environment may be the biggest hitter's paradise in all of the minors. He was selected in 2006 by the Mariners. He also had the best curveball in the Mariners minor leagues according to Baseball America.

My first reaction to this trade is that it may be Neal's finest to date, especially when considering the circumstances. Yes, they had to pay most of Jack and Snell's salaries for this year, but considering the fact that everyone knew Snell did not want to pitch here, NH still got someone to believe that Snell can be a solid SP -- I totally think that's fair by the way because Snell definitely has good stuff.

Jack Wilson will be missed, but he's not getting any younger, and while he may be playing the best defense of his career right now, he is still not a long-term solution. I said before I wouldn't want to trade him just to trade him, and this would certainly not be getting rid of him just for no reason. I will take a couple months to a year of a sub-par SS if it means making a good baseball trade like this. I would have been fine with him being in Pittsburgh next year too, but this trade makes sense to me.

[Lintyfresh85]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Congrats on the trades today.

Neal did himself well. Especially on the Alderson pick up.