2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Love the Sanchez for Alderson deal....love it. Trading a guy going downhill for a guy on the rise? Great move...


ChaseB - I agree with much of what you stated except I'm not that high on Steve Pearce. I just don't think he's got the swing to be successful at the MLB level... It's a bit violent for my liking. He probably does deserve the rest of the season to prove what he can do, but that's as far as I'd go. I also think G. Jones will fall off and isn't this type of hitter. However, he's got to play right now to see what he can do. If he keeps it up throughout the rest of the season, I think he needs to be viewed as a potential starting OF'er or 1B next season (I believe he played 1B in the minors?).

[Scottdau]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Love the Sanchez for Alderson deal....love it. Trading a guy going downhill for a guy on the rise? Great move...


ChaseB - I agree with much of what you stated except I'm not that high on Steve Pearce. I just don't think he's got the swing to be successful at the MLB level... It's a bit violent for my liking. He probably does deserve the rest of the season to prove what he can do, but that's as far as I'd go. I also think G. Jones will fall off and isn't this type of hitter. However, he's got to play right now to see what he can do. If he keeps it up throughout the rest of the season, I think he needs to be viewed as a potential starting OF'er or 1B next season (I believe he played 1B in the minors?).

I love the deal too. So everybody wins. And Alderson is still a prospect not a stud yet! Unless you think tearing it up in AA makes you a stud. Well, actually 3.46 is not really tearing it up, but he is a good pitcher and you might have a stud in the future.

[baseball66]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

if the pirates traded for him he can't be as good as everyone thinks he is, lol.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I love the deal too. So everybody wins. And Alderson is still a prospect not a stud yet! Unless you think tearing it up in AA makes you a stud. Well, actually 3.46 is not really tearing it up, but he is a good pitcher and you might have a stud in the future.

I wouldn't use the term "stud" until he does it at the MLB level, but I sure like a guy who's done very well in the minors and is still young (and you have to do it at the AA level before doing it at the MLB level). Especially when giving up a 31 year old, injury prone 2B who I believe is on the downhill of his career. But that's the way the Pirates are moving....build from within and get younger looking towards the future.

[Scottdau]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I wouldn't use the term "stud" until he does it at the MLB level, but I sure like a guy who's done very well in the minors and is still young (and you have to do it at the AA level before doing it at the MLB level). Especially when giving up a 31 year old, injury prone 2B who I believe is on the downhill of his career. But that's the way the Pirates are moving....build from within and get younger looking towards the future.

And that is a wise move.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

if the pirates traded for him he can't be as good as everyone thinks he is, lol.

Don't forget this is a different GM in place... A guy who actually has a plan, opposed to the last few GM's who didn't know what they were doing. The goal of the Pirates is not to compete now, but to compete in a few years when McCutchen, Pedro Alvarez, Alderson and crew mature...

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

if the pirates traded for him he can't be as good as everyone thinks he is, lol.

Then why did you post this?

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...9-post351.html

[Scottdau]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Then why did you post this?

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...9-post351.html

He is ****ing with you. He is pissed about the deal. I am the only Giants fans that like this deal

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Love the Sanchez for Alderson deal....love it. Trading a guy going downhill for a guy on the rise? Great move...


ChaseB - I agree with much of what you stated except I'm not that high on Steve Pearce. I just don't think he's got the swing to be successful at the MLB level... It's a bit violent for my liking. He probably does deserve the rest of the season to prove what he can do, but that's as far as I'd go. I also think G. Jones will fall off and isn't this type of hitter. However, he's got to play right now to see what he can do. If he keeps it up throughout the rest of the season, I think he needs to be viewed as a potential starting OF'er or 1B next season (I believe he played 1B in the minors?).

Pearce's swing is funky no doubt, but even though he starts his swing early, he really has refined his discipline and has improved his K/BB rate pretty significantly. So he does check swing a lot, but that's just how it goes.

And yeah you play G. Jones for now, but the problem is he is Jason Bay bad in the field, only he won't hit like Jason Bay, so it's an issue that won't go away.

As for the Alderson deal, while I do like it, I also think it's always risky to only get one prospect back in a deal, especially when it's a pitcher.

But Alderson is another tall guy (6'7) who could still add some velocity to his fastball, which really sits around 88-90 this year, and he is holding his own as a 20 year old in Double A. Also his curveball is filthy and he has amazing control. I think he's a 3-4 starter at this point, which is nothing to sneeze at in a deal like this, but if his changeup improves, then he can move up and be something more.

His mechanics are frightening, so I wouldn't be surprised by a cataclysmic arm injury, but he does repeat the motion at the very least, and the funky nature of it should help him out. Besides the arm injury, he could also just lose the motion like Dontrelle Willis did for example. But I wouldn't change the motion either since it works for him.

If all they get out of this is 6 years of having a cheap pitcher who slides into the 3-hole in the rotation, then that is still amazing, but there is obviously a chance they get nothing out of him, hence why it's riskier than the Seattle grab-bag.

But considering the fact that every GM knew the Pirates wanted Freddy out of town so they didn't have to pay his player option next year, this deal is, well, pretty amazing because the Pirates were working from a position of weakness in this deal (as well as the Wilson deal).

Also I believe Lastings Milledge has been recalled, so that era is starting in Pittsburgh (Moss I guess is odd-man out, though, I still say benching Jones is the better call. I assume Pearce will lose a few ABs too since Moss still has to play some of the time and that would move GJones to first). Apparently Clement will go to Triple A for a week to get acclimated and reassessed. From there we shall see with him.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Man, Neal Huntington for GM of the Year.

The Seattle deal was awesome, agreed Chase. Who would of thought they could get rid of Jack Wilson and land what they landed? I surely didn't. Packaging Ian Snell worked out very well.

Alderson for Freddy? Geez, what a bad trade by the Giants. Does Sabean realize he just traded a top prospect for a guy who hit .270 last season, with less than 60 RBI's and an OBP below .300? It's been nearly three years since his batting title season, and he hasn't come close to a season like it since.

He's having an okay bounce-back season this year, but is that seriously your idea of "trading for a bat"? It's not like Freddy is ever going to hit .344 or drive in 80 runs again. Plus he's injury prone, aging, I mean he's really not even a starter on a number of teams in the MLB, he'd just be a utility player. If you're looking for offense, I would of expected to see a trade for Adam Dunn or something, not a slap single hitting second baseman.

Huntington has done awesome this season.

What to do now? Hmmm. Garret Jones sucks, I wouldn't waste a minute thinking that his hot start is indicative of things to come for him. He's just Chris Shelton V.2. They better not rethink their outfield or first base position for the future, with Garrett Jones in mind as anything but a backup. I wouldn't mind him off the bench or anything, I just don't buy him at all as an every day player.

Clement should be up before the season is over. I wanna see what he can do. There seems to be questions about him being the same after taking a few knee surgeries. Maybe he can't play catcher anymore (but then again neither can Ryan Doumit, but that doesn't stop him) but if his bat is as good, then we have a winner. I wouldn't even be opposed to Jaramillo being our every day catcher until Sanchez is ready, Clement at 1st, and then Doumit traded.

Duke-Morton-Maholm-Alderson-Ohlendorf is a solid rotation, the best we've had on paper in a very long time. And to think, they still have a good number of other pitching prospects to fill whatever other roles they need. Again, if not anything, Neal did a tremendous job of adding depth to this franchise in just one and a half seasons.

[BurghFan]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Don't get me wrong, I still love the Pirates, but I'm just getting tired of all the losing especially with the Steelers always winning and the young and improving Pens. The Pirates wasted yet another quality start by Zach Duke yesterday. If they would only give him some offense, he'd probably have 12-14 wins right now. How many 1-0 or 2-1 decisions has he been on the losing end of this year (at least he got a ND yesterday). Though that still brings up the question of what's up with Matt Capps this year? He's now 2-6 with an ERA over 6.0 and several BSV's.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Truthfully, I'd love to see the Pirates trade Duke while he's doing well. Trade him at the top of his game when his value is high because IMO, he's a back of the rotation starter who's pitching above his head. Get something for him now.

While I think Huntington has done a decent job this season, I'm not as high on him as Steelcurtain. I do think he's done a good job adding depth to the organization (it's almost impossible not to add depth), but some of his moves have made me scratch my head a bit. Time will tell on whether any of these moves were good, bad or indifferent. I'm definitely hoping for the best.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Truthfully, I'd love to see the Pirates trade Duke while he's doing well. Trade him at the top of his game when his value is high because IMO, he's a back of the rotation starter who's pitching above his head. Get something for him now.

While I think Huntington has done a decent job this season, I'm not as high on him as Steelcurtain. I do think he's done a good job adding depth to the organization (it's almost impossible not to add depth), but some of his moves have made me scratch my head a bit. Time will tell on whether any of these moves were good, bad or indifferent. I'm definitely hoping for the best.

I agree in a sense when it comes to Duke. He hasn't really improved his pitching or anything this year, he simply has an above-average defense behind now, whereas before he had a dreadful defense behind him -- the defense is not nearly as strong after the recent moves. But I also agree with Neal asking for a lot for Duke. He's cheap for a few more years, as well as a mid-rotation starter who will eat a ton of innings. Those types of guys are harder to find than you would think, so he should ask for a nice haul.

I don't think either Maholm or Duke are going to be dealt at this point, but that's not really a bad thing if the deal isn't right. While it should be all about turning over the roster, these guys aren't free agents next year -- Maholm just signed a new contract and Duke's arbitration years shouldn't be too out of hand as of yet. If he doesn't like what he's receiving, reassess during the offseason when maybe he can get more teams involved in the sweepstakes.

And what moves have made you scratch your head, just out of curiosity?

Man, Neal Huntington for GM of the Year.

The Seattle deal was awesome, agreed Chase. Who would of thought they could get rid of Jack Wilson and land what they landed? I surely didn't. Packaging Ian Snell worked out very well.

Alderson for Freddy? Geez, what a bad trade by the Giants. Does Sabean realize he just traded a top prospect for a guy who hit .270 last season, with less than 60 RBI's and an OBP below .300? It's been nearly three years since his batting title season, and he hasn't come close to a season like it since.

He's having an okay bounce-back season this year, but is that seriously your idea of "trading for a bat"? It's not like Freddy is ever going to hit .344 or drive in 80 runs again. Plus he's injury prone, aging, I mean he's really not even a starter on a number of teams in the MLB, he'd just be a utility player. If you're looking for offense, I would of expected to see a trade for Adam Dunn or something, not a slap single hitting second baseman.

Huntington has done awesome this season.

What to do now? Hmmm. Garret Jones sucks, I wouldn't waste a minute thinking that his hot start is indicative of things to come for him. He's just Chris Shelton V.2. They better not rethink their outfield or first base position for the future, with Garrett Jones in mind as anything but a backup. I wouldn't mind him off the bench or anything, I just don't buy him at all as an every day player.

Clement should be up before the season is over. I wanna see what he can do. There seems to be questions about him being the same after taking a few knee surgeries. Maybe he can't play catcher anymore (but then again neither can Ryan Doumit, but that doesn't stop him) but if his bat is as good, then we have a winner. I wouldn't even be opposed to Jaramillo being our every day catcher until Sanchez is ready, Clement at 1st, and then Doumit traded.

Duke-Morton-Maholm-Alderson-Ohlendorf is a solid rotation, the best we've had on paper in a very long time. And to think, they still have a good number of other pitching prospects to fill whatever other roles they need. Again, if not anything, Neal did a tremendous job of adding depth to this franchise in just one and a half seasons.

Unfortunately they don't give GMs the MVP award for how a trade looks at first glance, otherwise I would tend to agree. It's like how people say the GM didn't get enough for Bay. It's easier to say that now (but still not fair until Morris flames our or not), but I don't really look at trades that way. Prospects can go either way, but you have to at least get good value up front, which the Pirates have been doing in pretty much every trade, so I consider them wins even if the return doesn't work out.

Anyway, I do think you're selling Freddy a little short. Good glove, good bat, and he instantly becomes the second best hitter in that SF lineup. Maybe that isn't saying a ton, and I don't think the Giants should have given up Alderson in that deal, but he is still an above-average player at 2B. I do worry about his health and he is in the wrong side of 30, but he's still an everyday player. I do agree that Sabean should have done a package deal and gone after someone like Victor Martinez if they were going to go for a bat, rather than get two just-OK bats like they did, but that's just me.

And yeah, like I said, I do think Jones will come crashing back to Earth, but either way, his season is going to look pretty good at this point because of that insane start. I hope management doesn't get swept up in it, but at the same time, the Pirates may have a spot open somewhere next spring, and maybe they can hold onto him before doing a Nyjer Morgan-type swap again -- by the way Nyjer is hitting like .400 since going to the Nationals, which is obviously good, but that doesn't change my opinion of him either.

After reading Dejan's chat transcript today, it sounds like Clement won't be up this year since he hasn't played first base much, so they want him to get a lot of reps there during the rest of the Triple A season. I would think he gets a shot to take first base next year (plus play some backup catcher) if Pearce doesn't take advantage of his opportunity. I also wouldn't be shocked if they do what the Indians did this year and use Doumit and Clement as the catcher/first base combo since both are injury risks.

And as a final note, I think you're selling Chris Shelton short. He mauled the ball for Detroit for parts of two seasons, and Dave Littlefield is still an idiot for letting him get away in the Rule 5. The problem was he had one of those Adam LaRoche moments where he was on fire, but then went very cold and got frozen out of the lineup. His minor league numbers were also rather absurd, whereas Garrett Jones' have never been that great.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

As for John Grabow and Tom Gorzelanny being traded for pitchers Jose Ascanio and Kevin Hart and third baseman/second baseman Josh Harrison, I think it's a fair enough type of move.

I think the Cubs get the lefty arms they want (Gorzo is going to Triple A when he gets to Chicago) and Grabow allows Marshall to go back to the rotation.

The Pirates get a guy who has put up similar numbers to Gorzo at Triple A (Hart) as well as a guy who is going to be a starting pitcher for now in Triple A (Ascanio). I think Hart could stick in the back-end of the rotation, but he's really only a two-ball pitcher, so might end up in the bullpen. Either way, he's better than Virgil Vazquez and Kerrigan might be able to get Hart to walk a few less batters, which has been a little bit of his issue at the MLB level.

Ascanio doesn't really even have a good second pitch, so I do think he'll end up in the pen, but he has a power arm and looked good in limited duty as well in the MLB, so I'm intrigued by him.

Harrison is a bit of a wild card. I don't know much about his glove, but his stats right now remind me a lot of Freddy Sanchez. He is only 5'8 but he is mauling the ball at A-ball right now. He is a little old for the level so they'll need to be a bit aggressive with his move up the totem pole. He's interesting and worth following, but a few years away at the very least.

I don't think Gorzo is ever going to find his former self again. He's apparently dumb as hell, so he's not very coachable, and he still hasn't found the fastball velocity that he lost. His lefty/righty splits are also troublesome and his walk totals still aren't where they need to be, but he could end up being a solid LOOGY. Maybe the change of scenery rejuvenates him, but his ceiling isn't much more than that of Hart even if he does find most of his former self. Some will say they sold low on Gorzo, but if they auditioned him at the MLB level, it could have gone even more wrong potentially.

I like Grabow well enough, but his numbers were a bit deceiving this year. Right now he actually is doing better against righties, but that is more a factor of luck than anything else if you look at the peripherals. I still think he's just a LOOGY. He also has bone chips in his elbow and I think now was a good time to trade him. He is a Type A free agent after the season, but teams have smartened up and were not going to lose a first-round pick to sign him, so I don't think the Pirates would have gotten that out of him.

I think some fans will think we didn't get enough in this deal, but I really don't think you can expect too much for Grabow and Gorzo.

Also, Jose Tabata got promoted to Indianapolis tonight, presumably to take the spot Lastings Milledge left behind. I wonder if Tabata plays CF for that team, or they stick him in RF. I wonder that purely because the Pirates like to put each prospect at the toughest position to play they think the player can handle, and also because Brian Bixler is playing CF for that Indy team right now.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I don't really think I'm selling Freddy short. He had one great season. The rest of his career is nothing remotely special. Whether it be because of injuries or whatever, it's clear his 2006 season was a fluke of sorts. He's not a power hitter, not a guy who is going to give you many RBI's, not a guy who walks, not a guy who steals, not even really a guy who hits for a high average aside from one season, I mean he's not really a great player by any means. He's just a great player for the PIRATES, because we have no great players.

In the Giants lineup, he's basically the same exact thing, which is why I don't understand how you trade for him if you're looking to make an offensive splash for the Wild Card.


As for the trades, yeah, they could backfire. The prospects could fail, yes. But they were still the right and best possible moves. It's still what you do if you want to rebuild your franchise. They got a LOT of promising young players for giving up a lot of mediocrity/average players. The fact is, we were a horrible team with these guys, at the very worst, we can be a horrible team without them. At least someone is trying to reestablish the franchise.