2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Even if you love Sanchez, he grades out at best to be an above-average defender with solid power and a sub-par average. He'll probably K a bunch too since his swing is slow.

I think it's a safe pick and he'll make it to the Majors, don't get me wrong, but he won't swing the bat as well as Doumit and it's not someone you should generally take in the top 5.

However, the Pirates were awesome today during the draft. They got a ton of arms and picked a bunch of guys with signability issues. Assuming Sanchez signs at or below slot value, then they should have a lot of money to throw around at some of these guys who fell.

Today, the Pirates have drafted a bunch of tall, projectable HS pitchers, along with some CFs and catchers, which I think were good moves. Also sprinkled in a power guy or two and a middle infielder.

Here's to Day 3 and the hopeful Sano signing.

You gotta figure, you're going by now. Factor in development. Right now that's what he might project to, but he could also develop a better bat on the way. What you know for sure is he's going to be a good defensive catcher. I'll take a guy who is going to play every day, has a potentially good bat, and is good defensively over Ryan Doumit any day of the week. Doumit is injured half the year every year and he sucks defensively. He's another guy who's true value is going to be in a trade.

I'm happy with the pick, I don't really think any of the pitchers in the first round were worth them taking a shot at, especially since they have good enough depth at pitcher to where they could wait until later in the draft. What they need is to get their positions locked down for the future, and they're doing just that.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Even if you love Sanchez, he grades out at best to be an above-average defender with solid power and a sub-par average. He'll probably K a bunch too since his swing is slow.

I think it's a safe pick and he'll make it to the Majors, don't get me wrong, but he won't swing the bat as well as Doumit and it's not someone you should generally take in the top 5.

However, the Pirates were awesome today during the draft. They got a ton of arms and picked a bunch of guys with signability issues. Assuming Sanchez signs at or below slot value, then they should have a lot of money to throw around at some of these guys who fell.

Today, the Pirates have drafted a bunch of tall, projectable HS pitchers, along with some CFs and catchers, which I think were good moves. Also sprinkled in a power guy or two and a middle infielder.

Here's to Day 3 and the hopeful Sano signing.

Agree entirely. I'm not happy with the Sanchez pick...there were better options at 4 (I think the Pirates took him in part because he's signable and won't demand a lot).

I know steelcurtain311 is a big fan of Huntington, but I'm still on the fence with this guy. I was not a fan of the Bay trade last year, but did like the Nady deal. The Nate McLouth trade was OK. I'm not sold on some of these prospects they got in return. IMO, Morton will simply be a AAAA guy. He does well in AAA, but has yet to put up even average numbers at the MLB level. Locke could be pretty darn good...he's a far ways off though so time will tell. I'm probably one of few who isn't a fan of Gorkys Hernandez...he's a Nyjer Morgan Light who probably takes better routes to balls than Nyjer does. I guess I'd prefer an outfield of Bay, Nate and McCutchen over an outfield of McCutchen, Tabata and Hernandez (which is what I think the Pirates are viewing the future as).

With that said, at least Huntington has a vision for the future. That's more than the last 2 GM's can say. It might take another 3-5 years of losing, but if the Pirates can build a solid contender by then AND Nutting will put money into the team to keep that core group together (because it's going to take money and winning to keep any good player in Pittsburgh), then it will be worth it.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I didn't like the Bay trade either. The guy is one of the elite offensive corner outfielders in the game, and you don't even get a top prospect for him? They should of gotten Lars Anderson or someone from Boston, and instead they got Brandon Moss.

The future is clear now in Pittsburgh, McCutchen and Pedro Alvarez. Everyone else is just build for around them, and they're doing a fine job of that. The McLouth trade was good, they sold him at the peak of his value. You guys need to stop overvaluing the guy. He was in all in reality, an average-slightly above average player. And in return for that, they got three of the Braves top prospects. That's a good deal.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Here's my deal with the Nate trade. I realize he was traded at potentially his peak (although I do think he's a legit .280/25 HR hitter and an MLB hitters peak is often seen as a player between 27-32...Nate is 27). I was on the Nate bandwagon way before most...as I never liked Duffy when everyone was high on him and thought Nate was better. I'm just not that impressed with the return the Pirates got.

Morton isn't one of the Braves top prospects so let's throw that out the window. I don't recall where he was ranked according to BA, but I think it was around #27 or so. He also got hit hard during 17 outings for the Braves last year so it might be early to call him a AAAA, but that's the knock on him according to Braves reports. Hernandez was #4 according to BA and I think Locke was #7. With that said, I don't entirely trust those rankings so I'm not going to put as much stock into those as I do in the scouting reports I've read (remember many of the Pirates that were ranked high and never amounted to anything, but the scouting reports showed a clearer picture).

Onto the other guys. I just don't think very highly of Hernandez. His minor league stats have never really jumped off the page at me and according to some scouting reports, he's a great field, great speed, limited hit type of guy. That's not exactly flattering unless it's describing a 4th outfielder. Locke does intrigue me, but it's tough to get a feel for a guy who hasn't surpassed A ball. We'll have to see after he moves up a bit.

I suppose I'm of the type that worries a bit about so called prospects that haven't really put up numbers in the minors. At some point they have to show what all the hype is about... Jose Tabata falls into that category for me as well as Hernandez. Neil Walker is in the same boat.

The future is definitely clear, but I'm not sure I agree with the assessment that the Pirates org has done a good job building around them so far. I still see many weaknesses throughout... I know Rome wasn't built in a day, but I'd like to see a bit more quality than I have seen to this point.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I didn't like the Bay trade either. The guy is one of the elite offensive corner outfielders in the game, and you don't even get a top prospect for him? They should of gotten Lars Anderson or someone from Boston, and instead they got Brandon Moss.

Where do you get Lars Anderson for Bay when they are already giving up Manny? I think first you need to realize that almost no team will trade a top prospect anymore in most every deal. Sabathia for LaPorta near the deadline is proof of that. Those mega 3-for-1 deals are pretty much dead because they just kill your team.

Beyond that, you don't give up a top 10 prospect for a guy with a below average glove and is good, but not top 5 at his position -- not to mention only under contract for one year. So you're probably overrating Bay's talents a bit as well. Looking beyond that, the Pirates got an everyday player in LaRoche, a high-upside pitcher, and two other players who can fill out a Major League squad. The deal hinges on Morris from a success rate, but it's a logical trade since Bay's value was only going to go down more as his contract came closer and closer to being up.

Here's my deal with the Nate trade. I realize he was traded at potentially his peak (although I do think he's a legit .280/25 HR hitter and an MLB hitters peak is often seen as a player between 27-32...Nate is 27). I was on the Nate bandwagon way before most...as I never liked Duffy when everyone was high on him and thought Nate was better. I'm just not that impressed with the return the Pirates got.

Morton isn't one of the Braves top prospects so let's throw that out the window. I don't recall where he was ranked according to BA, but I think it was around #27 or so. He also got hit hard during 17 outings for the Braves last year so it might be early to call him a AAAA, but that's the knock on him according to Braves reports. Hernandez was #4 according to BA and I think Locke was #7. With that said, I don't entirely trust those rankings so I'm not going to put as much stock into those as I do in the scouting reports I've read (remember many of the Pirates that were ranked high and never amounted to anything, but the scouting reports showed a clearer picture).

Onto the other guys. I just don't think very highly of Hernandez. His minor league stats have never really jumped off the page at me and according to some scouting reports, he's a great field, great speed, limited hit type of guy. That's not exactly flattering unless it's describing a 4th outfielder. Locke does intrigue me, but it's tough to get a feel for a guy who hasn't surpassed A ball. We'll have to see after he moves up a bit.

I suppose I'm of the type that worries a bit about so called prospects that haven't really put up numbers in the minors. At some point they have to show what all the hype is about... Jose Tabata falls into that category for me as well as Hernandez. Neil Walker is in the same boat.

The future is definitely clear, but I'm not sure I agree with the assessment that the Pirates org has done a good job building around them so far. I still see many weaknesses throughout... I know Rome wasn't built in a day, but I'd like to see a bit more quality than I have seen to this point.

Nate probably already had his career year. If you look beyond his first two months last year (which were incredible) he's been average with a below-average glove. If you take him out of center -- and that's logical because he's not very good out there -- he looks very average in a corner OF spot. He'll hit you 20 HRs and probably snag 20 SBs, but he won't give you much else. The nicest part about Nate is his cheap contract, which is below market value.

But since you were on the "bandwagon," you probably want to be proven right, hence why you are probably overvaluing him a smidgen.

If you don't entirely trust the BA rankings, then why be so down on Morton? He has four good pitches, including a good heater and a curveball that was ranked as best in the Braves system. He needs to throw strikes, which seems to be his problem more than his stuff or being a AAAA guy. He put a lot of pressure on himself last year because he came up right after Hudson and Smoltz went down. He should have just worried about being himself rather than trying to replace those two big-time starters.

Gorkys is playing in an advanced league when you factor in his age. The bat is the X-factor, but if you put him in CF today, he's better than Nate in the field and rivals Cutch. I think you just got to let him play and see what happens. When he's 24 and still in Double A, then it's time to worry. Regardless, it's hard to find a player with five tools, even if all five don't pan out.

Locke is similar to Morris in terms of the type of prospect they are. They are both a long ways away, and while Morris needs to stay healthy, Locke needs to throw strikes. Hard-throwing lefties are hard to come by, though, and he did pitch very well last year -- struggling a bit this year.

I think, while I mentioned before I wasn't a fan of the first day of the draft, Huntington and his squad scouted these Braves guys all last year, so they have plenty of data on them. And if Neil was the one who gave the Braves the package he wanted and got it, then you have to assume he won in the deal because he got exactly what he wanted. Now maybe his talent evaluation team turns out to be wrong, but it wasn't like Neil set out to trade Nate for nothing -- after all Nate was locked up for many more years.

I'm not sure why you bring up Tabata. His numbers last year speak for themselves. He tore the cover off the ball after coming over and is once again playing at an advanced league for his age. He just needs to stay healthy.

Neil Walker just got hyped because he was a solid player in a barren system. Not that he can't make it (his glove is ready) he just needs to hit for a better average or improve the OBP. He has significantly improved his K/BB rate so that's a start.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Where do you get Lars Anderson for Bay when they are already giving up Manny? I think first you need to realize that almost no team will trade a top prospect anymore in most every deal. Sabathia for LaPorta near the deadline is proof of that. Those mega 3-for-1 deals are pretty much dead because they just kill your team.

Beyond that, you don't give up a top 10 prospect for a guy with a below average glove and is good, but not top 5 at his position -- not to mention only under contract for one year. So you're probably overrating Bay's talents a bit as well. Looking beyond that, the Pirates got an everyday player in LaRoche, a high-upside pitcher, and two other players who can fill out a Major League squad. The deal hinges on Morris from a success rate, but it's a logical trade since Bay's value was only going to go down more as his contract came closer and closer to being up.

Have you seen what Bay has done so far this season? And that's not top 5 at his position? That's nuts man. He's clearly a top 5 offensive corner OF, you just never seen it in full effect until now, since he never had a Boston lineup to work with. Yeah, he's not great with the glove, but you're not trading for a glove, you're trading for a bat.

The Sox were giving up Manny because they HAD to. The Pirates didn't HAVE to give up Bay. They had all of the leverage. Boston needed Bay, LA needed Manny, the Pirates didn't need anything, didn't even need to make the trade. Boston is loaded with talent in their farm, and on their current big league squad in general. They could afford to give up their top prospect, and the Pirates should of most definitely of gotten him, or at least a top 3 prospect from them to go along with the deal. Hansen/Moss are nothing. Moss is a fourth outfielder at best, while Hansen is just a middle reliever/possible SU guy if he ever gets a shred of control.

In terms of the contract situation, what's the big deal there? He's in Boston. Boston has money. They don't have to worry about the contract nearly as much as the Brewers did with CC Sabathia. Bay will want to be there, they will want to pay him to stay. Especially with Ortiz's decline.

They did decent in the trade, it wasn't a total ripoff or anything. But they should of gotten more out of Boston. The return from LA was decent at best, and the Pirates gave up their franchise player for it, a guy who is murdering the ball this year, an MVP candidate. So you gave up your biggest offensive threat for a contact hitting third baseman, a pitching prospect who isn't near MLB ready, and two guys who will never be good every day MLB players? Not the return they should of gotten.

The simple fact of the matter is, you do not give up your best player without getting the best prospects in return. Look at the Twins after the Johan trade. They got a downright pitiful return for trading away the best pitcher in baseball, and now their rotation is pretty much in shambles. Their team is dropping off the face of the planet, when they could of been a dominant force in the AL for years.

Nate probably already had his career year. If you look beyond his first two months last year (which were incredible) he's been average with a below-average glove. If you take him out of center -- and that's logical because he's not very good out there -- he looks very average in a corner OF spot. He'll hit you 20 HRs and probably snag 20 SBs, but he won't give you much else. The nicest part about Nate is his cheap contract, which is below market value.

But since you were on the "bandwagon," you probably want to be proven right, hence why you are probably overvaluing him a smidgen.

If you don't entirely trust the BA rankings, then why be so down on Morton? He has four good pitches, including a good heater and a curveball that was ranked as best in the Braves system. He needs to throw strikes, which seems to be his problem more than his stuff or being a AAAA guy. He put a lot of pressure on himself last year because he came up right after Hudson and Smoltz went down. He should have just worried about being himself rather than trying to replace those two big-time starters.

Gorkys is playing in an advanced league when you factor in his age. The bat is the X-factor, but if you put him in CF today, he's better than Nate in the field and rivals Cutch. I think you just got to let him play and see what happens. When he's 24 and still in Double A, then it's time to worry. Regardless, it's hard to find a player with five tools, even if all five don't pan out.

Locke is similar to Morris in terms of the type of prospect they are. They are both a long ways away, and while Morris needs to stay healthy, Locke needs to throw strikes. Hard-throwing lefties are hard to come by, though, and he did pitch very well last year -- struggling a bit this year.

I think, while I mentioned before I wasn't a fan of the first day of the draft, Huntington and his squad scouted these Braves guys all last year, so they have plenty of data on them. And if Neil was the one who gave the Braves the package he wanted and got it, then you have to assume he won in the deal because he got exactly what he wanted. Now maybe his talent evaluation team turns out to be wrong, but it wasn't like Neil set out to trade Nate for nothing -- after all Nate was locked up for many more years.

I'm not sure why you bring up Tabata. His numbers last year speak for themselves. He tore the cover off the ball after coming over and is once again playing at an advanced league for his age. He just needs to stay healthy.

Neil Walker just got hyped because he was a solid player in a barren system. Not that he can't make it (his glove is ready) he just needs to hit for a better average or improve the OBP. He has significantly improved his K/BB rate so that's a start.

I agree on pretty much all fronts. Nate had a terrific two months, probably because Nady/Bay were also killing the ball. Other than those two months, his numbers are incredibly average, and as soon as those two were traded, his production dropped off significantly.

I don't get all of this trashing of Morton. I've seen numerous people blast the guy, saying he's nothing more than a number 5 starter at best, where are you getting this from? I watched him pitch that one inning in that Braves game, that did not look like the stuff of some weak prospect. He has a hard fastball and great curveball, and looked to have good command of both.

The bottom line is, you sell high, the Pirates did that. Nate probably never has an elite season or anything, he wasn't a guy to build around. We have McCutchen, we didn't need Nate. Maybe all three of the guys they got turn into scrubs? Who knows right now? The point is, it was a smart risk and the kind of thing I liked to see from our GM. He's given me so much more faith than previous regimes ever did in the past 15 years.

If Gorkys can turn into a solid leadoff guy, then that's all we need. A slightly better Nyjer Morgan is fine by me, because I personally don't like Nyjer Morgan at all, I think he's trash aside from the fact that he can steal a base here and there.

Tabata, I like. Everyone blasted the Pirates for that trade, but they clearly made out much better than the Yanks, since Nady was obviously playing for a contract last season (hence why he didn't go on the DL once, despite suffering injuries) and is now out for the season for them. The Yankees got practically nothing in that trade, since Nady played half a season, they didn't even make the playoffs, and they probably won't resign him, and it's not like he was resigning with the Pirates, so who made out better? Tabata looks to have a great future, and Ross Ohlendorf has been a very solid pitcher for us as a back of the rotation guy. Tabata needs to stay healthy, yes, but his bat has been compared to a young Manny Ramirez by some scouts. He could be a very big deal, much bigger than originally thought.

Neil Walker sucks. I'm still furious at that pick, simply because they only made it since he's from Pittsburgh. What a horribly idiotic drafting strategy. "Lets take the mediocre catcher 1st because he'll sign with us since it's his hometown" Ugh.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Where do you get Lars Anderson for Bay when they are already giving up Manny? I think first you need to realize that almost no team will trade a top prospect anymore in most every deal. Sabathia for LaPorta near the deadline is proof of that. Those mega 3-for-1 deals are pretty much dead because they just kill your team.

Beyond that, you don't give up a top 10 prospect for a guy with a below average glove and is good, but not top 5 at his position -- not to mention only under contract for one year. So you're probably overrating Bay's talents a bit as well. Looking beyond that, the Pirates got an everyday player in LaRoche, a high-upside pitcher, and two other players who can fill out a Major League squad. The deal hinges on Morris from a success rate, but it's a logical trade since Bay's value was only going to go down more as his contract came closer and closer to being up.



Nate probably already had his career year. If you look beyond his first two months last year (which were incredible) he's been average with a below-average glove. If you take him out of center -- and that's logical because he's not very good out there -- he looks very average in a corner OF spot. He'll hit you 20 HRs and probably snag 20 SBs, but he won't give you much else. The nicest part about Nate is his cheap contract, which is below market value.

But since you were on the "bandwagon," you probably want to be proven right, hence why you are probably overvaluing him a smidgen.

If you don't entirely trust the BA rankings, then why be so down on Morton? He has four good pitches, including a good heater and a curveball that was ranked as best in the Braves system. He needs to throw strikes, which seems to be his problem more than his stuff or being a AAAA guy. He put a lot of pressure on himself last year because he came up right after Hudson and Smoltz went down. He should have just worried about being himself rather than trying to replace those two big-time starters.

Gorkys is playing in an advanced league when you factor in his age. The bat is the X-factor, but if you put him in CF today, he's better than Nate in the field and rivals Cutch. I think you just got to let him play and see what happens. When he's 24 and still in Double A, then it's time to worry. Regardless, it's hard to find a player with five tools, even if all five don't pan out.

Locke is similar to Morris in terms of the type of prospect they are. They are both a long ways away, and while Morris needs to stay healthy, Locke needs to throw strikes. Hard-throwing lefties are hard to come by, though, and he did pitch very well last year -- struggling a bit this year.

I think, while I mentioned before I wasn't a fan of the first day of the draft, Huntington and his squad scouted these Braves guys all last year, so they have plenty of data on them. And if Neil was the one who gave the Braves the package he wanted and got it, then you have to assume he won in the deal because he got exactly what he wanted. Now maybe his talent evaluation team turns out to be wrong, but it wasn't like Neil set out to trade Nate for nothing -- after all Nate was locked up for many more years.

I'm not sure why you bring up Tabata. His numbers last year speak for themselves. He tore the cover off the ball after coming over and is once again playing at an advanced league for his age. He just needs to stay healthy.

Neil Walker just got hyped because he was a solid player in a barren system. Not that he can't make it (his glove is ready) he just needs to hit for a better average or improve the OBP. He has significantly improved his K/BB rate so that's a start.

Regarding Nate, I don't disagree that he likely had his career year already. However, I do believe that a .280/20 HR season might be his norm (and he's cheap and still in his peak years). That's really not that bad. As far as being on the Nate bandwagon, that went back to the Nate vs Duffy debate. I was never sold on Duffy and apparently I was right on that. I felt Nate was the better all around player. The funny thing about Pirate fans is that they often overvalue players when they play for the Pirates and then undervalue them when the players are gone. I heard things about Bay after he left that I couldn't believe (ie: he's not a good fielder anyways...he was losing a step on the bases...his bat speed is slowing down...he wanted out and wasn't giving it 100% anyway so I'm glad he's gone etc...). Now, I'm not saying Bay and Nate should be compared any further than both wore the Pirates uniform, but am trying to show how many Pirate fans react.

Regarding Morton. I'm not basing my thoughts on BA's rankings... I'm basing them on what he did in 17 appearances for the Braves last year. Look at his numbers last year...they weren't good at all. Even his IP/K/BB ratio was horrible. One can say he was putting too much pressure on himself or trying to live up to Smoltz/Hudson, but let's be honest...those are just excuses for poor performance. Call me a bit callous, but I don't want to hear excuses....I want to see production. If I listened to all the excuses of the guys who work for me, nothing would ever get done. With that said, 17 appearances is not a large sample size. Duke only threw 84.2IP in 2005 and people were calling him the next great pitcher and I was the one saying let's wait and see how he does over 2-3 seasons. So I'll take my own advice and see how Morton does over a prolonged period.

Regarding Hernandez. He's definitely a plus guy in the field. There's no doubt about that. IMO, for the trade to work, the bat has to be there. There's no telling how that will turn out at this point. I can't recall the exact number, but most BA's and OBP's drop X number of points once a player reaches the majors. That doesn't always happen, but in most cases. For Hernandez bat to be legit, I'm not sure that can happen.

I brought up Tabata because I'm not sold on him like I'm not sold on Hernandez. I didn't think I was that obtuse when I mentioned worrying about these hyped up prospects who never live up to expectations. True, Tabata did hit well when he came over last year, but let's look at the sample size. You're talking about 89 AB's.

Agreed about Walker...although I've already given up on him. I think the Pirates reached to get him due to the local boy press they got. I played against his older brother and saw Neil play a number of times in HS. Truthfully, I thought his older brother, Matt, was better. I think Matt got up to AAA, but barely saw much time once he got there. I believe he quit or was cut shortly thereafter.

With all that said, I readily admit to being more of a pessimist when it comes to the Pirates. I'm 32 years old and remember every losing season, every poor trade, every salary dump clear as day. I also remember the winning seasons in the early 90's and sitting at my parent's house watching the playoffs unfold. There was a point in time a number of years ago where I got tired of all of Mgmt's talk and wanted to just see some winning. I realize it's a different Mgmt group, but I'm still waiting to see that winning.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I agree on pretty much all fronts. Nate had a terrific two months, probably because Nady/Bay were also killing the ball. Other than those two months, his numbers are incredibly average, and as soon as those two were traded, his production dropped off significantly.

I don't get all of this trashing of Morton. I've seen numerous people blast the guy, saying he's nothing more than a number 5 starter at best, where are you getting this from? I watched him pitch that one inning in that Braves game, that did not look like the stuff of some weak prospect. He has a hard fastball and great curveball, and looked to have good command of both.



The bottom line is, you sell high, the Pirates did that. Nate probably never has an elite season or anything, he wasn't a guy to build around. We have McCutchen, we didn't need Nate. Maybe all three of the guys they got turn into scrubs? Who knows right now? The point is, it was a smart risk and the kind of thing I liked to see from our GM. He's given me so much more faith than previous regimes ever did in the past 15 years.

If Gorkys can turn into a solid leadoff guy, then that's all we need. A slightly better Nyjer Morgan is fine by me, because I personally don't like Nyjer Morgan at all, I think he's trash aside from the fact that he can steal a base here and there.

Tabata, I like. Everyone blasted the Pirates for that trade, but they clearly made out much better than the Yanks, since Nady was obviously playing for a contract last season (hence why he didn't go on the DL once, despite suffering injuries) and is now out for the season for them. The Yankees got practically nothing in that trade, since Nady played half a season, they didn't even make the playoffs, and they probably won't resign him, and it's not like he was resigning with the Pirates, so who made out better? Tabata looks to have a great future, and Ross Ohlendorf has been a very solid pitcher for us as a back of the rotation guy. Tabata needs to stay healthy, yes, but his bat has been compared to a young Manny Ramirez by some scouts. He could be a very big deal, much bigger than originally thought.

Neil Walker sucks. I'm still furious at that pick, simply because they only made it since he's from Pittsburgh. What a horribly idiotic drafting strategy. "Lets take the mediocre catcher 1st because he'll sign with us since it's his hometown" Ugh.

I agree that the Pirates sold high...although I think if they traded Nate last year, that would have been the perfect "sell high" opportunity. He has slowly declined since his first few months last year and I wonder if his value would have been much more last year.

Agreed about Nyjer. I know a lot of people love that guy, but I don't see it. I like his enthusiasm, but that's about it.

I definitely liked the Nady trade last year as I think the Pirates got the better of the deal. I'd also like to see Tabata stay healthy so we can actually see what he can do over a prolonged period of time. I've heard the comparisons to a young Manny Ramirez before, but Manny showed a bit more power in the minors. I believe he was averaging 15-20 HR's during his minors. Obviously he's showed a lot more at the MLB level (steroids or not).

Couldn't agree more on Neil Walker. I've been saying the same thing for years.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Anyone paying attention to Pedro lately? Had a 7 RBI game the other day. The power is most definitely there for him, they've been telling stories of his ridiculous HR's, some going well over 500 feet. His patience hasn't made the jump though, which sucks, since it's supposed to be a very strong aspect of his game.

Kind of makes me wonder if it's the Pirates farm system itself, as to why so many of our prospects never make the leap to MLB quality. Not saying Pedro is doomed or anything, he's way too talented. It just makes you wonder though, exactly how bad is our farm system development/coaching wise?

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Honestly, I'm not too worried about Pedro's patience. The same exact thing happened to McCutcheon when he was in the low minors. Pitchers seem to want to pitch around the high draft picks and better players and we often see many of those draft picks chase after pitches. It's got to be frustrating for those guys when they might see 1 good pitch in a game or 2....so they start chasing. I think we'll see Pedro pick it up once he gets up the higher levels. I'd like to see him in AA soon.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

McCutchen has been ridiculous. It just further makes the Nate McLouth trade look good. He's going to win Rookie of the Year, out of every rookie I've watched, none of them look as legit MLB ready as Cutch. He's actually winning games by himself, from the leadoff position. He's got great patience, and already 18 RBI's in 20 games from the freaking LEADOFF spot. That's more than half their lineup has, in just 20 games, when rarely even being in RBI situations.

Factor in his run production, this is going to be an elite MLB player.

What I do if I'm the Pirates right now: Ian Snell goes to the bullpen. Maybe even permanently. Sending him down to AAA is pointless. He has the good hard stuff, but weak control, so what do you do? Make him a 1-2 inning guy, long relief if he has to. He could even probably be a good SU-closer guy. He's been downright awful this season, he can't continue being a starter, that's for sure.

Call up Gorzelanny, see how he does. If he can't get it done, call up Dan McCutchen. The guys numbers haven't been outstanding this year in AAA, but he has had some really great starts. Either way, he's 26 years old, it's about time to at least give him a shot in the MLB.

Their power problems are the real trouble here. You have to trade Adam LaRoche, but he's your only legit power threat, and he's a terrible power threat to begin with. So no matter what, their offense is going to struggle. I would definitely get rid of the guy though, depending on the offer.

Shop Jack Wilson around some more. We have nothing in the system for SS, but so what. Shop him around, if you can get a good return, then Freddy Sanchez can play SS, which he is very capable of doing. Can't continue paying a guy 10 million dollars to bat .250 and do nothing in terms of power.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Today is why I think sending Snell to AAA is the right move. He's absolutely dominating in his first start (7IP, 2H, 1BB, 17K). I understand your reasoning as to why not to send him down, but it's far from pointless. He can work on mechanics without the media, he can gain confidence (as Snell states - get the chip back on his shoulder), he can re-learn how to pitch etc...

Let's face it. Snell stunk and has for quite some time. He got "fat and happy" as the saying goes. Putting him in the bullpen for 2-3 innings or as a setup guy or God forbid, a closer (he's WAY too much of a head case for that), just means he'll stink for a shorter period of time and doesn't send Snell a strong enough message - not to mention he'd be even more of a clubhouse cancer. Did you hear what he said after his last outing? He blamed everyone, but himself. He blamed the defense, he blamed the offense, he blamed the staff for trying to get him to pitch off his curveball instead of his fastball etc... Snell has great stuff and it would be nice to see him harness it (reminds me of Kip Wells - great stuff, scared of the bat), but he's a complete headcase.

I agree about bringing Gorzelanny back up. He dominated last night 5IP with 12 K's, 2 BB's. Kyle Stark said Gorzo's velocity was back up as well. I think he also got "fat and happy" a while back and thought his job was secure. He needed a wakeup call...that and a personal trainer!

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Gorzo didn't kind of get "fat and happy" he simply got FAT.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Today is why I think sending Snell to AAA is the right move. He's absolutely dominating in his first start (7IP, 2H, 1BB, 17K). I understand your reasoning as to why not to send him down, but it's far from pointless. He can work on mechanics without the media, he can gain confidence (as Snell states - get the chip back on his shoulder), he can re-learn how to pitch etc...

Let's face it. Snell stunk and has for quite some time. He got "fat and happy" as the saying goes. Putting him in the bullpen for 2-3 innings or as a setup guy or God forbid, a closer (he's WAY too much of a head case for that), just means he'll stink for a shorter period of time and doesn't send Snell a strong enough message - not to mention he'd be even more of a clubhouse cancer. Did you hear what he said after his last outing? He blamed everyone, but himself. He blamed the defense, he blamed the offense, he blamed the staff for trying to get him to pitch off his curveball instead of his fastball etc... Snell has great stuff and it would be nice to see him harness it (reminds me of Kip Wells - great stuff, scared of the bat), but he's a complete headcase.

I agree about bringing Gorzelanny back up. He dominated last night 5IP with 12 K's, 2 BB's. Kyle Stark said Gorzo's velocity was back up as well. I think he also got "fat and happy" a while back and thought his job was secure. He needed a wakeup call...that and a personal trainer!

I don't buy it. I don't see the point of it at all. We already know he's above AAA, he's got dominating stuff. I don't see any point in wasting everyone's time with an AAA stint, for him to come back up and still be the same pitcher. I don't feel he's suited for the rotation anymore.

It's pretty much just like you said, the guy is terrified of the zone. He doesn't want to put anything over the plate, he just wants guys to swing and miss, and that's why he's throwing 50 pitches in an inning. And he can shut his mouth, he tried that bull**** last year when they wanted him to mix his pitches up more. He was like "I'm going into this game and using my fastball from now on" and yeah, he was hitting it up to 95 MPH. But hitters were also destroying him, so a lot of good that did.

If he's just going to be a fastball pitcher, he belongs in the bullpen. Period.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Gorzo didn't kind of get "fat and happy" he simply got FAT.

Hence mentioning the personal trainer.

It's been mentioned a few times that he needed to mature on and off the field. I think his off the field maturity was simply taking his profession more seriously and working out/watching his weight etc...