2010 Pirates

[MizzyMike05]

Re: 2010 Pirates

I'm really digging all the pirates talk going on right now. It's good to see people out there that pay attention to my team as much as I do.

I can't believe people are calling for Huntington's head already. His drafting has been terrific. He's taken the best position player and best pitcher available in two drafts, and then drafted a catching prospect that nobody else would have, who has turned out to have some star qualities so far (although it's still early for him). Not to mention all the pitching he's loaded up on in the past two drafts. Plus, you're even seeing failed Littlefield picks like Walker and Moskos thrive under Huntington's new farm system. Walker could be the rookie of the year this year.

For where our team and farm system was before he got there, to where it is now, it's quite the difference.

With the trades, I don't think he's done bad at all. He's gotten good value in return for everybody except Bay, although Bryan Morris is looking pretty impressive. Only thing is LaRoche was awful and can't even produce as a bench/utility player, Moss couldn't even hit in an MLB lineup, and Craig Hansen hasn't even played yet, has he? This was the only "bad" trade I'd say Neal made, mainly because Hansen and Moss were obviously not going to do anything for this club.

McLouth? He wasn't even a good player. He got sent down this year didn't he? Guy played way above his head for one season, Neal knew it, and dumped him at his peak for a handful of prospects. Morton has good stuff, despite being sooooo bad this season. I think he has the talent to turn it around. While Locke is looking pretty good in A ball, and Gorkys has been on fire before his season-ending injury. With McCutchen and Tabata lurking right around the corner, who needed Nate McLouth? I think Neal definitely won that trade.

Sanchez for Alderson, I still think was a great move. You know we weren't going to find many clubs that would give up one of their top prospects for Freddy freakin Sanchez. Alderson may have tanked since coming to our farm, but the upside is there. While Sanchez is just a singles hitting 2nd baseman, a glorified utility player since he fluked his way to a batting title, really. Plus he's injured constantly.

Nady for McCutchen, Ohlendorf, Karstens, Tabata? You can't beat that trade. That was an excellent trade, probably the best Neal made. He took a guy that is a DL regular and having a career season, and shipped him off for three pitchers, and a top OF prospect. None of the three pitchers may be aces or anything, but all are solid back of the rotation guys who can contribute. On top of a prospect who has star potential. And the Yankees got what? Half a season of Nady, didn't make the playoffs, and then Nady got hurt again the next year and never even played for them again.

You'd rather have Nyjer Morgan over Milledge? I surely wouldn't. Plus, they also got Hanrahan in that deal. Both have worked out. Nyjer, not so much.

This go around, I think they hit another HR on the trades. Getting rid of an aging relief pitcher like Dotel for a top prospect? He might be a problematic prospect, but if the talent is there then why not take the risk? You're only losing a very replaceable Dotel, while gaining a possible star. Josh Hamilton was once in that same position. McDonald can probably be a solid starter for us, too. They even got somewhat of a return for garbage like Javier Lopez, which is pretty hard to believe. You guys gotta remember that it's not like we were dealing elite players or something. We were dealing a bunch of irrelevant free agent pickups that any team could have signed, yet none did. But we got a return for them. We basically got a return of some decent talent, for aging crap that nobody wanted to begin with. That's good.

When you look at some of other teams trades, like the horrid return the DBacks got for Dan Haren, or the horrid return(s) Houston got for Oswalt and Berkman, I would say what Huntington is doing looks pretty damn good.

Regardless, he deserves at LEAST five years to complete his plan. I feel we'll see a big change in this club's competitiveness as early as next season. Will they hit .500? Probably not, but I bet you there's signs of great things.

^^^ great read. I like what you have to say. NH has definitely been the best GM the pirates have had in awhile. Pretty much every trade he has made has given us something in return. I agree that he should at least have 5 years to complete his plan. I just think that we need a new manager and coaching staff. I do like JR, but I just don't think he is a manager nor does he fit into our system. We need an experienced guy to come in and manage our team, like a Buck Showalter. I really hope that Huntington realizes this and he makes the appropriate move. I think Bobby Valentine would be a great fit here.

And if Huntington can get Taillon and Stetson Allie to sign, then we are in pretty good shape down on the farm. But I believe that if he fails to sign either or both, then it may be looked at as a failed draft.

[Hova57]

Re: 2010 Pirates

I'm really digging all the pirates talk going on right now. It's good to see people out there that pay attention to my team as much as I do.



^^^ great read. I like what you have to say. NH has definitely been the best GM the pirates have had in awhile. Pretty much every trade he has made has given us something in return. I agree that he should at least have 5 years to complete his plan. I just think that we need a new manager and coaching staff. I do like JR, but I just don't think he is a manager nor does he fit into our system. We need an experienced guy to come in and manage our team, like a Buck Showalter. I really hope that Huntington realizes this and he makes the appropriate move. I think Bobby Valentine would be a great fit here.

And if Huntington can get Taillon and Stetson Allie to sign, then we are in pretty good shape down on the farm. But I believe that if he fails to sign either or both, then it may be looked at as a failed draft.

they have sparks of a good team , i think licoln, duke and if macdonald continues what he did in his first game with the team it may be the beginning. i think there spots that they really need help other than pitcher is right field and catcher. i don't know if the guy they just got will be anygood, but i also like the thirty year old they had last week can't remember his name.

[MizzyMike05]

Re: 2010 Pirates

they have sparks of a good team , i think licoln, duke and if macdonald continues what he did in his first game with the team it may be the beginning. i think there spots that they really need help other than pitcher is right field and catcher. i don't know if the guy they just got will be anygood, but i also like the thirty year old they had last week can't remember his name.

the 30 year old catcher is erik kratz. his bat kinda sucks. he probably won't be on the team next year. tony sanchez is our catcher of the future. eta for him is probably mid 2012. lincoln has some command work to do. duke is nothing but a #3 starter at best. i hope macdonald can keep up a good pace but i bet he won't be any better than another #3.

[ohyeahbaby123]

Re: 2010 Pirates

El Toro!!!!

Man, I need to catch up on my Pirates baseball. I can never seem to get into it enough during the season, which means I'm not very informed on prospects and such.

However, and correct me if I'm wrong (which I'm pretty sure I will be), is this the direction the team is heading in?

1st base: Jones
2nd base: Walker
SS: ???
3rd: Alvarez
OF: McCutchens, Tabata, Gorkys/Milledge?
C: Tony Sanchez

(I have no clue about any of the pitching or middle infield prospects )

[MizzyMike05]

Re: 2010 Pirates

I can't stop watching the Alvarez walk-off home run highlight on mlb.com. It keeps giving me goosebumps and I am so excited for next year.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2010 Pirates

I can't believe people are calling for Huntington's head already. His drafting has been terrific. He's taken the best position player and best pitcher available in two drafts, and then drafted a catching prospect that nobody else would have, who has turned out to have some star qualities so far (although it's still early for him). Not to mention all the pitching he's loaded up on in the past two drafts. Plus, you're even seeing failed Littlefield picks like Walker and Moskos thrive under Huntington's new farm system. Walker could be the rookie of the year this year.

SNIP...

Since you got banned, I guess you won't read this. However, I want to make it clear that I don't think NH should be fired at this point. He deserves a chance to see out his plan (unless of course, things go very awry). However, I just have not been that happy with some of his moves. Also, let's not talk about "failed prospects" like Walker and Moskos under DL's system thriving under NH's. That's foolish. They're the same players...just older, wiser and possibly realizing their potential. That comes with age and time in the minors.

You only listed the main positives and left off the negatives. You have to view things by their entirety and not cherry pick what you want. The Nady trade was great. The McLouth trade was good because he was sold at his highest point (although I think they should have received more as the only guy I like from that trade is Locke...Morton and Gorkys don't impress me much). The Burnett/Morgan trade was good as well.

The Bay trade was terrible. Even if Morris pans out as a legit top of the rotation starter, that trade still is terrible. Trading a talent like Bay should bring more in return than a guy like Bryan Morris. The Iwamura trade was terrible as well. Outside of NH, who didn't realize Iwamura was finished? The Wilson/Snell trade, Torres trade, Bautista trade, Gorzo/Grabow trade were all poor deals. He thought it was a good idea to bring back Brian Bixler earlier this year. I also never liked the Romulo Sanchez deal. Why trade a hulking flamethrower with potential for a guy like Eric Hacker?

I also wouldn't compare what other teams are receiving in return for players to suggest NH is doing a good job. If other teams are making poor trades, that has nothing to do with the Pirates. That's like suggesting that if someone else jumped off a bridge, you would as well. If it's not a trading market, don't make any moves. Simple as that.

Here's a little known fact... Those Major League scouts that are responsible for giving NH info in regard to trades are mainly holdovers from the Dave Littlefield regime. NH never replaced them. He did however overhaul the entire minor league scouting department (and with great results so far IMO).

With all that said, most moves take a few years to realize whether they were good or bad. There's a very good chance I've been too hard on the moves and need to see them play out. There's also a good chance you and some others need to do the same. Regardless, the organization is better than it was previously - which is good. It's just not moving fast enough for someone such as myself who remembers every single losing season (and I do understand it can't change overnight). I still remember being in high school and sitting on my bed as Sid Bream rounded third and scored...breaking all our hearts. For the younger generation, my guess is all the losing isn't as bad as they haven't experienced the winning or just aren't sick of the losing yet. One of these days I'll make my way back to PNC Park, but I haven't reached that point yet. I still enjoy the heck out of the Pirates and watch them on TV as often as possible (only have time for a game or 2 per week), but I'm not a fan of spending my hard earned money on an organization I don't completely trust yet. Hopefully that day will come soon.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2010 Pirates

Oh yeah, quite a game last night. I saw the highlights this morning. Gotta love Alvarez.

[M11x]

Re: 2010 Pirates

Pitching coach Dave Kerwin...I mean....Joe Kerrigan and bench coach Gary Varsho were fired today by Russell. I'm not surprised about Kerrigan but kinda surprised with Varsho. It seems, reading in between the lines, that there was some conflict between Russell, Kerrigan, Varsho and the front office.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2010 Pirates

Pitching coach Dave Kerwin...I mean....Joe Kerrigan and bench coach Gary Varsho were fired today by Russell. I'm not surprised about Kerrigan but kinda surprised with Varsho. It seems, reading in between the lines, that there was some conflict between Russell, Kerrigan, Varsho and the front office.

Varsho mouthed off a few times which made Russell look weak (I don't think they got along very well). I'm not sure there was a problem between Kerrigan and Russell as much as I think they are unhappy with the direction/results of the pitching staff. Ray Searage will be the new pitching coach. He's done very well in the past with AAA pitchers so hopefully he'll have continued success at the MLB level.

[BurghFan]

Re: 2010 Pirates

Pitching coach Dave Kerwin...I mean....Joe Kerrigan and bench coach Gary Varsho were fired today by Russell. I'm not surprised about Kerrigan but kinda surprised with Varsho. It seems, reading in between the lines, that there was some conflict between Russell, Kerrigan, Varsho and the front office.

Article: http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/...80/detail.html

Varsho will be replaced by minor league field coordinator Jeff Banister. They definitely needed to do something as far as the pitching coach went, their starters have been horrible this year.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2010 Pirates

I'll be honest, I'm not that thrilled with NH or the moves he's made. I will give him credit that he does have a plan and is sticking to his plan, but I'm still not thrilled with some of the moves he's made over the last few years. The Snyder/Church/Carrasco/Crosby move is a wash for both teams. Neither team gave up anything and neither team received anything.

No, the Pirates gave up players on one-year contracts who amounted to a negative WAR while gaining players who maybe can help out and are all club-controlled -- Bowker is out of minor league options next year though. Each trade was pretty clearly a win for the Pirates, and pretty much every analyst out there agrees with that as well -- Baseball America being just one of the outlets.

The Dotel trade is interesting in both players received could at least amount to something whereas Dotel didn't have a future with this team.

Again, then why did you say neither team received anything? Baseball America did rank McDonald and Lambo as 1 and 2 in the Dodgers system not too long ago. McDonald could work as a mid-rotation starter or reliever, and he hasn't been around nearly long enough to be considered a failure. His Triple-A numbers are incredibly impressive for a hitter's park as well. Lambo also has potential, but I'm just sticking to McDonald to explain why I don't agree with you for now.

The Lopez trade is pretty much a wash as well. Giving up Lopez isn't a big deal and the return is pretty weak as well.

Lopez wasn't even a good LOOGY and was the king of smoke and mirrors with his ERA. Bowker isn't a star, but could be a good right-handed platoon player -- his numbers the last few years in the minors are ultra-impressive. Again, he's out of options and Clement, Moss and Garrett Jones are also potential left-handed platoon players -- Jones should not be going against all these left-handed pitchers -- so he's a bit redundant but still potentially useful. He might get washed away because the Pirates folks will probably feel more comfortable carrying players they've known for longer -- Huntington even said he didn't have a plan yet for Bowker when he was acquired, so presumably he didn't even expect Sabean to offer him. Plus, Lastings and Pearce are potential right-handed platoon players that play the same two positions as Bowker. Martinez is a typical emergency starter/reliever type.

The only negative to the Dotel/Carrasco/Lopez moves is it left the bullpen pretty bare. This caused them to sign Chan Ho Park and Chris Resop off waivers today. Both pitchers stink and are basically stop-gaps. I'm also worried about Meek as he's pitched an awful lot of innings so far.

I don't really agree that both those pitchers stink. Once again, Resop's stats at Triple A were very good (struck out over a batter an inning as a starter this year), and his sample size is way too small to write him off. His fastball has good velocity, and he has a good curve. The fastball is pretty straight, but he's worth a look. Chan Ho was a victim of some bad luck and Yankee Stadium. That doesn't mean I don't think Chan Ho has struggled this year, but his home-run rate won't stay that high, and getting away from the AL East is always a plus. It wasn't very long ago when Chan Ho was doing just fine as a reliever.

IMO, NH has done a very good job with the drafts, but has done an average to below average job on trades/FA pickups (who didn't see Aki Iwamura being a bust aside from NH?). Basically, his MLB scouts stink while his draft scouts are pretty darn good.

It's too early to say the draft scouts are very good if you're going to say the MLB scouts are lousy. I think it's easy to lean that way because minor-league players who flame out are easier to ignore than the MLB players who flame out, but you should still be critical of both parties. In other words, if you're going to blame the MLB scouts for Dana Eveland, you should also criticize the minor-league scouts for Andy LaRoche.

Beyond that, we haven't even really seen many drafted players yet (sans Pedro), so all we can really say is analysts praise the Pirates for spending a lot of money at this point. Yes, I have read a lot about them picking good players or providing a great minor-league teaching system etc., but since the system was so bare it's not ranking that high or anything yet. Give it a couple more years to see how it stacks up to the rest of the MLB before believing how good it is. It's when a wealth of talent starts getting to Double A and above that it should be easier to judge. (I like what the Pirates have done in the Draft, but playing devil's advocate here because I think you're being too harsh to one side and not hard enough on the other).

However, I just have not been that happy with some of his moves. Also, let's not talk about "failed prospects" like Walker and Moskos under DL's system thriving under NH's. That's foolish. They're the same players...just older, wiser and possibly realizing their potential. That comes with age and time in the minors.

I think that's very much debatable. Walker had over three years and over 900 under impressive at-bats under his belt at the Triple A level, but he got to the Majors when the Pirates moved him to second base and stressed that he show some patience at the plate. They also used a suspension/harsh words towards him at a couple points, which perhaps was a bit of a reality check. He got the majors by showing he could handle a position switch and by showing added patience, which perhaps helped him put up some very nice numbers before being called up. Walker has done well to this point and reminds me a bit of Freddy Sanchez with perhaps a bit more pop and a little less contact. His walk rate is back in the toilet and I'm not sold on him yet, but if he turns into another piece, then good.

As for Moskos, the Pirates have handled most of his development since DL was fired shortly after that infamous Draft. They gave him a chance to start and develop his pitches before moving him back to the pen where he was doing very well until getting to Triple A. Moskos has hit another wall, but while he was looking like a useless player this time last year, he now looks like he could be a nice bullpen piece if he turns it around after a rough start at a new level.

You only listed the main positives and left off the negatives. You have to view things by their entirety and not cherry pick what you want. The Nady trade was great. The McLouth trade was good because he was sold at his highest point (although I think they should have received more as the only guy I like from that trade is Locke...Morton and Gorkys don't impress me much). The Burnett/Morgan trade was good as well.

People judge trades in different ways and at different times, so it's really all about how you want to do it.

The Bay trade was terrible. Even if Morris pans out as a legit top of the rotation starter, that trade still is terrible. Trading a talent like Bay should bring more in return than a guy like Bryan Morris.

Again, it depends on how you want to deal with trades. But, if I'm understanding you right, I think you like to think about trades much later in the process, which I don't really do but fair enough. That being said, if Morris turns into a "top of the rotation" starter the trade is a slam-dunk win by any measurement. If you get a top of the line starter who is club-controlled for 6 years for a player approaching free agency that's more than you can ask for in any deal of that sort. It's also easy to forget that before Bay did very well for himself in Boston, people still had worries about his knee (and there were still worries this offseason). Plus, he was coming off a sub-par year, and in the year he was traded he still was not approaching his first three years in Pittsburgh where he was incredibly good. (Bay is a weird case in general because he was not loved enough when he was in Pittsburgh, but now that he's been gone for a bit people think about him so lovingly -- even though he was already trending down by the time he was dealt.)

The Iwamura trade was terrible as well. Outside of NH, who didn't realize Iwamura was finished?

FanGraphs for one. At the time, most analysts thought it was a very smart move for the Pirates. They traded a fungible reliever for someone who had been a league-average 2B -- and also came back from the knee surgery the year before and played for a month before the season ended.

The Wilson/Snell trade, Torres trade, Bautista trade, Gorzo/Grabow trade were all poor deals. He thought it was a good idea to bring back Brian Bixler earlier this year. I also never liked the Romulo Sanchez deal. Why trade a hulking flamethrower with potential for a guy like Eric Hacker?

-Not sure why the Wilson/Snell trade is a bad one. Wilson has done nothing, and Snell proved once again he's bad and a bit unstable. Clement hasn't worked out well (been better since the recall), but Cedeno has improved this year, and there are still three pitchers in the minors kicking around who could still be useful -- I still like Lorin the best in that group.

-Even Huntington says the Torres trade was a bad one, and one he said he learned from.

-Gorzo/Grabow is an interesting one. I still like Ascanio (looked good in his rehab so far) and Hart could still be useful in some capacity, but hey, injuries happen -- can't really blame the Pirates for injuries. Harrison looks like he could be a useful utility player -- he can really hit but doesn't really have a position. Gorzo was traded at least in part because Kerrigan said he wasn't learning/improving so that's an interesting element to the deal now that he just got fired. Grabow was actually pretty brutal before being dealt, then got overpaid this offseason, and has been injured/terrible this year so that's not really a big deal.

-The Bautista trade is so easy to pick on now, but it's really not fair to either side. For one, Bautista was putting up Andy LaRoche numbers while in Pittsburgh. He was given more than a fair shot to succeed after being re-acquired after Littlefield fumbled him away the first time. Secondly, he was nothing special his first two years in Toronto, but now as a soon to be 30-year-old veteran he is having a breakout year. Fair enough, but I mean I don't think it's fair to praise one side or dismantle the other side for this three years later. Chalk Jose's year up as a career year and applaud him for finally figuring things out for at least one year.

-Bixler was depth for multiple positions at the Triple A level, and has since been traded to the Nationals after being acquired/dealt a couple times. It's not like he was stealing at-bats or something so why be mad about someone who was Triple A depth.

-I thought Romulo's arm looked good once again during spring training this year, but he doesn't throw enough strikes. I would still like to have him as Triple A depth since he's sort of like Indy Indians pitcher Jean Machi, but both Hacker and Sanchez seem to be guys who will be emergency players at this point -- think Hacker is now in the Giants system.

Here's a little known fact... Those Major League scouts that are responsible for giving NH info in regard to trades are mainly holdovers from the Dave Littlefield regime. NH never replaced them. He did however overhaul the entire minor league scouting department (and with great results so far IMO).

I've known about this for a long time, but I just don't know how much can really be figured out. If you think he's done a good job with Kyle Stark to redefine the minor-league system, he would presumably have done the same to the major-league level if he felt it was needed. At the same time, I don't know which scouts he holds in high regard, or which scouts have been replaced or a whole host of other stuff. So since there are so many unknown variables, I really just try to look more at Huntington than the scouts. Plus, Huntington is a guy with a scouting background, so he probably would have been better at the minor league stuff by default since he had more previous experience with that before becoming a GM. If anything, I think maybe criticizing him for not being a "fast enough learner" at the MLB level would be more valid than targeting the scouts since there is a little of unknowns with them.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2010 Pirates

Chase - There's a lot to respond to, but I don't have that much time at work this morning. I know you're a huge NH supporter...and that's fine, but I think we must look at things differently when it comes to trades/signings. Looking at potential in trades is wonderful, but I'd love to actually see some real life results now. I realize the Pirates are trading pretty average to below average players at this point so the return is going to be negligible in most cases. Maybe I need to review my outlook and realize that flawed potential might be the best the Pirates can do in these deals? When I look at guys like Bowker, Snyder, Clement, Hart and even a guy like Cedeno....I don't see a piece to the long-term puzzle. If I'm building a contending ballclub - which is what all teams aspire to, these players aren't in the picture. I suppose baby steps are needed and that's where the Pirates are, but that's not my style in life. I'm full bore with all that I do and that's what's made me a success. I'd love to see the Pirates do the same, but maybe that won't work for them. I suppose NH has done the best with what he has (even if I don't agree with some of his trades and likely never will), but another 2-3 years of losing isn't going to go over well around here (and IMO I don't see this club winning in 2 years) - especially when the other teams in the city are often so good.

Quite simply, I've run out of patience with this organization over the years and feel like I'm seeing them make some of the same mistakes as in the past (on a smaller scale though).

PS - I'm shocked fangraphs thought Iwamura would be a good move. I know giving up Chavez wasn't a big loss, but still....Iwamura? I can't possibly be in the minority believing this was a bad move when it was made?

[ChaseB]

Re: 2010 Pirates

Chase - There's a lot to respond to, but I don't have that much time at work this morning. I know you're a huge NH supporter...and that's fine, but I think we must look at things differently when it comes to trades/signings. Looking at potential in trades is wonderful, but I'd love to actually see some real life results now.

I'm just not sure what you want for Jack Wilson or Ian Snell for example. They got a shortstop who was struggling but at one point showed promise, a former top-five pick who had sputtered, and three minor league pitchers with various levels of potential. You were not going to get star-level guys or instant starters for those types of players. I would argue you are seeing tangible results as well with that deal since Cedeno is about a 1.5 WAR player on the year so far with improved fielding while Wilson is more expensive, has been fighting injuries and is on the downside of his career.

I realize the Pirates are trading pretty average to below average players at this point so the return is going to be negligible in most cases. Maybe I need to review my outlook and realize that flawed potential might be the best the Pirates can do in these deals? When I look at guys like Bowker, Snyder, Clement, Hart and even a guy like Cedeno....I don't see a piece to the long-term puzzle. If I'm building a contending ballclub - which is what all teams aspire to, these players aren't in the picture. I suppose NH has done the best with what he has (even if I don't agree with some of his trades and likely never will), but another 2-3 years of losing isn't going to go over well around here (and IMO I don't see this club winning in 2 years) - especially when the other teams in the city are often so good.

I just think it's important to have perspective. They got Bowker for a bad LOOGY on an expiring contract, so if he doesn't perform then it's not a big deal. In fact, trading something like that I would expect not to get anything tangible in the long run, but at least there is a small chance he can succeed, while there was zero chance of Lopez doing anything in the long run in Pittsburgh.

Someone like Snyder is a perfect bridge to someone who is the future at that position at this point, Tony Sanchez. Any catcher's defense was going to be an improvement over Doumit, but Snyder is a legitimate starting catcher. He was traded because Montero is simply better and it doesn't make sense for Arizona (a team in full-on slash and burn mode) to be paying a catcher who is now a backup that amount of money.

But I think the general point is that it's fine if you don't see many long-term puzzles in these players. The Pirates got some potential tangible long-term pieces in trades via Ohlendorf, Tabata, Morris, McDonald, and there are still plenty of guys in the minors from these deals who might contribute at various points as well. Most of the long-term pieces will come from within or when you trade superstar-level talent for minor-league top prospects -- both of which the Pirates were short on thanks to previous faults.

I really don't know if the Pirates will be winning in 2 years. I believe it was Bobby Cox who said it took the Braves eight years to build what they wanted, and five-year plans are generally thrown around in baseball. But the important thing is that the Pirates give themselves a chance to succeed. It's easy to want to be hasty and go out and sign some mid-level veterans and go "full bore" to win, but frankly that would end with the Pirates at best middling around .500 -- Littlefield tried this and didn't even get to .500. It's a slow process unfortunately when everything was so barren and that leads to understandable frustration.

And to clarify, I wouldn't even say I'm a huge NH fan, he's just running the standard rebuild playbook at the minor league level (overhaul and spend a lot), with one of his tweaks to the trading blueprint being a focus on fallen prospects. It will come down to execution in the long run, which is why I'm still pretty indifferent to him as a whole. He hasn't made any monumental errors, but he hasn't put a stamp on the franchise either. Basically, he could very well be a very average GM (I don't think he's a bad one, and many franchises with more assets would frankly succeed with just average GMs), but the Pirates will need an AMAZING GM to weasel their way towards contention for an extended stretch. At this point, I am not sure where NH falls.

PS - I'm shocked fangraphs thought Iwamura would be a good move. I know giving up Chavez wasn't a big loss, but still....Iwamura? I can't possibly be in the minority believing this was a bad move when it was made?

I mean he was a very sound player before the injury, and looked OK upon his return. I think people felt like it was a smart use of money since he could be a valuable trade chip and was about to become a FA unless someone could take him off the Rays hands due to a clause in his contract. Basically, I don't see how you couldn't be in the minority when you get a 2.5 WAR player for a fungible reliever who pitched in mostly low-leverage situations -- and years of control for relievers isn't really important unless it's a top-tier guy.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2010 Pirates

I see where you're coming from. That's my thing... I want the GM of the Pirates to be that amazing GM guy and I'm not sure NH is that guy. I think as Pirate fans we've dealt with enough heartache over the years to want the best. I know it's not a popular job for different reasons, but also a challenging one that would put any individual's name on the map if that individual turned things around. I suppose time will tell and it might take a number of years to see the entire plan.

Regarding Iwamura, I know a lot of people that weren't happy with the trade when it happened. Not that we gave up Chavez, but that Iwamura was the guy the Pirates were getting. Typically I'm of the belief that trading a reliever for any starting position player is usually a good move. But what I saw of Iwamura wasn't positive. He was 31, expensive and coming off an injury that should have made it obvious he'd lose a bit in the field (the Pirates probably never thought he'd lose as much as he did though). I'm as big of a stat guy as most and understand he was a 2.5 WAR player, but the Pirates had to see he was declining on the field. With that said, they gave up little and lost little so it's really a moot point. It's not like they gave up Aramis Ramirez for a bag of baseballs as DL did (even if he was forced to move salary by ownership).

[mjb2124]

Re: 2010 Pirates

Supposedly both Taillon and Allie have signed. That's great news if true...Pirate fans need something to look forward to as the MLB club isn't providing much right now.

I've also read that the Pirates are the front runner for a 16yo Mexican Pitcher who's supposed to be pretty darn good.