Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense more

[Jrocc23]

Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defen...

OPs post is a clever idea, but I would pass on that. Seems like it would be very annoying for me. I can see it now, running on a fast break and having hit RS to my other ball hand while controlling the LS. And other specific situations I can think of. I'll pass.

I don't see Michael Jordan in that video anywhere...but I've been meaning to get my eyes checked :/

He said one of the greatest, which he is. And I don't like LeBron at all.

here just 1 example from one of the greatest of all time in a big game at a clutch moment.

LeBron isn't a great ball handler imo though. Especially at the type moves he tried to pull off and other crossovers. But yeah, players do lose the ball. And 2K needs to punish people for doing 5+ crossovers in one possession. May sound arcadish, but my suggestion is to make the ball more and more "live" as they dribble so it'll easier to bounce of someone's leg, or get stolen if I reach in.

The current controller layout isn't the cause of zig zag cheese. It's the lag input and animations on defense. I didn't have problems with zig zag cheese to this degree on previous 2Ks.

[Davon_A_Brown]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/G-3WlvzbNnM" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe> here just 1 example from one of the greatest of all time in a big game at a clutch moment.

All I saw was a crossover, an in and out, and maybe him going into another crossover to get by Duncan. I'm all for randomness and players losing the ball when just stringing random moves together, but are you suggesting that the one of the best ball handlers in the league (control-wise not because of sick moves) lose the ball after two moves every fast break? I say do away with all meters and allow ratings, physics, and basketball logic to matter more.

I believe auto dribbling moves are necessary in some instances where players do subtle movements that can't really be mapped to a controller, but performing crossovers should be more difficult. I believe the biggest issue for defense is foot planting or lack thereof for offensive players.

[Caelumfang]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

Actually, after giving it some thought, there's a simple way to get rid of the zig zag for good.

We all know that, IRL, it's nearly impossible to stop on a dime while in a full sprint. Zig zagging requires the user to hold turbo, go a direction, let go of the stick, and go the other direction. Why not just add am some sort of 'hesitation' when they try to stop? Having them kinda shuffle their feet? That simulates a person at full speed trying to stop immediately.

That gives the defense time to react, and with that hesitation, they can't easily reverse directions on a dime. Once cheesers see the hesitation doesn't allow them to shift directions immediately, they'll stop even attempting it.

[bo.jangles344]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

Read the first 15 replies to this thread, sorry if this had been mentioned previously, but i honestly feel that regardless of what has been mentioned so far the biggest problem is us. We, the conglomerate of consumers, have a large percentage of players that think the only way to win is by shooting threes. It has been mentioned by many of my friends online and in real life that the video game emulates the direction the real nba is headed and vice verca(sp?). I actually read an article on grantland by zach lowe(props to any other gl fans for knowing who that is) about the death and rebirth of the post game.

If you haven't noticed, and something that is rarely mentioned on here is that the post moves on here are horrible. They are wildly inconsistent in both animations chosen and the actual success of the shot. The fact of the matter is that there really aren't very many good post players in the league anymor. There are some, and I'm not going to mention who because i know i know who is and isn't regardless of what you think, but not enough to really force 2k to make those specific players be capable of what they actually do to what they do in the game. Instead, any old player is just as successful in the post as the elite post players with very little differential between the two. While the article in question suggested that in order for the post to be a mainstay in the league again, might suggest a reinvention of how the post is used(I'll let you read the article to try and comprehend what he was talking about, because i did and I'm not even trying to explain it like he did) the important part to understand in terms to us, that there really is no incentive for them to really spend a lot of time there because it's just not in demand that much.

Instead, where the demand has been is literally "i want to make more jumpshots". Plain and simple. Our peers basically got mad because we were beating them with basketball knowledge and actual skill. Not to say this can't still happen, the fact remains that this game is forever going to be like this until either the nba changes the way it plays or because we decide this is what we really want.

It's become so bad that players with Max defense, pld, and extreme length for their position are still unable to defend any and every jump shooter Consistently. I mean, honestly, if a 7ft player can't guard a 5'3 pg on every single jump shot, with the current rating system, this should be a realistic impossibility. I'm saying in career, my team, 5vs5 quick match, team up, any mode in this game, if a 7ft player is within 3 feet of the offensive player when he releases his shot, that is a block almost every time. Specifically, the entire duration of the shot, from gather to release. Whether that is a longer or quick release. Theoretically, the bigger man is going to affect the shot in some way. coaches actually harp on big men at all levels if they find themselves defending a shooter on the perimeter to never leave them unless the correct match-up has an opportunity to switch back. The advantage of the smaller player is not that he can use his dribble moves to get himself an open look, in fact, most commonly the tactic used with a smaller player matched up with the bigger defender is to use his speed and quickness to get past his larger defender to the basket. This is why the pick and roll is the essential bread and butter of any game of basketball you've ever seen or played in.

The fact that the basic concept of the pick and roll is so flawed in this game is laughable. It's even superfluous to the right player. That is a *** **** insult to the game.

In light of those who see this post as tl;dr.

if the only thing i typed (and why i waited to talk about this) was talking about the instances where the defensive animations were so horrible that the person i was defending was able to get the shot off even, regardless of the success, i would point to the animations that happen most frequently (getting stuck in mud while attempting to close out, or simply stopping and jumping straight up[or literally backwards a couple times]instead of into the players face) to the times where i literally stick to certain players the ENTIRE possession and when they catch the ball (sometimes they shouldn't have even caught the ball) there's an animation to aid their success (I've literally had my armpit in someones face and my arm bent to the side to let them get the shot off not playing, dead serious)..

Anyways, apologize for the length and horrible punctuation. I realize even the summary was long, lol. I typed this on my phone and it took a long time so i hope you read and like it.

[City_foxx]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

All I saw was a crossover, an in and out, and maybe him going into another crossover to get by Duncan. I'm all for randomness and players losing the ball when just stringing random moves together, but are you suggesting that the one of the best ball handlers in the league (control-wise not because of sick moves) lose the ball after two moves every fast break? I say do away with all meters and allow ratings, physics, and basketball logic to matter more.

I believe auto dribbling moves are necessary in some instances where players do subtle movements that can't really be mapped to a controller, but performing crossovers should be more difficult. I believe the biggest issue for defense is foot planting or lack thereof for offensive players.

i saw two crosses a behind the back an in n out and a cross attempt. Brons a great ballhandeler i just wanted to share a vid of it happening since others' claimed nba player never lose the ball. Im not sugesting dribble fails happen every time some 1 exeeds a certain amount of dribble inputs. But a chance say 35%after 4 40% after 6 60%8 with that dice roll on each dribble move increasing in probability of a miss dribble. Im also not sugesting every miss dribble to be a turnover. This "meter" should also affect strip probabilty increasing the same way. It would help make the ball feel more 'live' and force players to play with purpose offensively. Instead of chain spamming unbreakable animations till your defender gets bumped off enugh to score

[Nevertheles109]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

i saw two crosses a behind the back an in n out and a cross attempt. Brons a great ballhandeler i just wanted to share a vid of it happening since others' claimed nba player never lose the ball. Im not sugesting dribble fails happen every time some 1 exeeds a certain amount of dribble inputs. But a chance say 35%after 4 40% after 6 60%8 with that dice roll on each dribble move increasing in probability of a miss dribble. Im also not sugesting every miss dribble to be a turnover. This "meter" should also affect strip probabilty increasing the same way. It would help make the ball feel more 'live' and force players to play with purpose offensively. Instead of chain spamming unbreakable animations till your defender gets bumped off enugh to score

I hear what you are saying man. But I think, if anything, majority would prefer less meter gaming oppose to more meter implementation. Truthfully I prefer the shot meter to go because the shot feedback was sufficient in the first place but that's a whole other subject.

Also, maybe it's just me, but I have no problem with guarding/stripping someone who over dribbles. We as a consumer need to utilize our basketball IQ, timing, personnel and angles instead of expecting 2K to provide more meter assistance to make the game easier.

Lastly, LeBron is one of the greatest of all time BUT he is not a great ball handler. Never has, never will be.

[madmax52277]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

Wasn't the meter thing that introduce patch#4?

Now if you use fatigue to cause mishandling the basketball... I'm with it. NBA players are well trained to handle the rock, but when tired things happen. but what I saw in 2k15..is dribbling in traffic, through the defender is just to easy. pulling dribble move's need a little strategy to it like when your playing on defense, that's all.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

Wasn't the meter thing that introduce patch#4?

Now if you use fatigue to cause mishandling the basketball... I'm with it. NBA players are well trained to handle the rock, but when tired things happen. but what I saw in 2k15..is dribbling in traffic, through the defender is just to easy. pulling dribble move's need a little strategy to it like when your playing on defense, that's all.

Good point....right now basically you can get away with either:

A) Moving left and right then spamming drive type moves

or

B) From a standstill basically just randomly flicking the dribble stick around like a madman until something "good" happens.

More times than not this will result in a moment many players find gratifying: wide open 3's, drive to the rack for a crazy dunk,etc.

IMO a system like it is now basically rewards people for playing in a arcade-ish manner.

Now personally, I'd like it see it refined to where it comes down to just 1 or 2 well timed dribble moves, the problem with doing that is many players are so used to what they can do now that taking that away from them will cause all sorts of complaints.

In that way, alot of the core issues stem more from the game trying to be both a sim type experience and an arcade type experience; short of either a change in design logic to commit to one style or the other, or separating into 2 separate games like NBA 2k15 and 2k15:Street or something,i am not sure it can ever be fully addressed in a way that won't leave someone feeling disenfranchised.

[madmax52277]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

Good point....right now basically you can get away with either:

A) Moving left and right then spamming drive type moves

or

B) From a standstill basically just randomly flicking the dribble stick around like a madman until something "good" happens.

More times than not this will result in a moment many players find gratifying: wide open 3's, drive to the rack for a crazy dunk,etc.

IMO a system like it is now basically rewards people for playing in a arcade-ish manner.

Now personally, I'd like it see it refined to where it comes down to just 1 or 2 well timed dribble moves, the problem with doing that is many players are so used to what they can do now that taking that away from them will cause all sorts of complaints.

In that way, alot of the core issues stem more from the game trying to be both a sim type experience and an arcade type experience; short of either a change in design logic to commit to one style or the other, or separating into 2 separate games like NBA 2k15 and 2k15:Street or something,i am not sure it can ever be fully addressed in a way that won't leave someone feeling disenfranchised.

Yeah..some people just don't like simple dribbling move's, they would probably say it's to easy to pull off lol. and to watch a player dribbles non stop until he finds a way to score..we need to penalize that. and the truth is The PARK is street ball aka NBA STREET lol...it supposed to be fun that's not a NBA game style playing. 2k should have 2 different game style setting's, street ball is all arcade..NBA...we'll I guess its NBA.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

Yeah..some people just don't like simple dribbling move's, they would probably say it's to easy to pull off lol. and to watch a player dribbles non stop until he finds a way to score..we need to penalize that. and the truth is The PARK is street ball aka NBA STREET lol...it supposed to be fun that's not a NBA game style playing. 2k should have 2 different game style setting's, street ball is all arcade..NBA...we'll I guess its NBA.

Spot on again...if they want to try both styles then maybe just remove the rank requirement for Rec and make that a sim style experience, add 5 v 5 to Park and have that as arcade style street ball.

[madmax52277]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

Spot on again...if they want to try both styles then maybe just remove the rank requirement for Rec and make that a sim style experience, add 5 v 5 to Park and have that as arcade style street ball.

All joke's a side...I think your really on to something. let the user/ teams, choose game style playing for each preference...

[Beluba]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

I love threads like this because usually good ideas can come out of them through the course of the discussion... so feel free to keep the discussion going.

Removing auto-crosses (as we call them) is NOT going to happen though. I hated the idea on Elite and I don't think the user should have to micro manage something as simple as keeping the ball in the correct hand as they move around the court. It's second nature to any half decent ball handler and should be something that just works.

That being said, I'm very aware of the fact that zig zag cheese is still, unfortunately, OP and we're working on fixing it for 2K16.

[madmax52277]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

I love threads like this because usually good ideas can come out of them through the course of the discussion... so feel free to keep the discussion going.

Removing auto-crosses (as we call them) is NOT going to happen though. I hated the idea on Elite and I don't think the user should have to micro manage something as simple as keeping the ball in the correct hand as they move around the court. It's second nature to any half decent ball handler and should be something that just works.

That being said, I'm very aware of the fact that zig zag cheese is still, unfortunately, OP and we're working on fixing it for 2K16.

Hey..I would love to see pressure sensitive dribbling..just like on defense, that will cause more realistic movement's and tone down zig zag cheese. sounds but who knows lol thanks.

[alabamarob]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

I love threads like this because usually good ideas can come out of them through the course of the discussion... so feel free to keep the discussion going.

Removing auto-crosses (as we call them) is NOT going to happen though. I hated the idea on Elite and I don't think the user should have to micro manage something as simple as keeping the ball in the correct hand as they move around the court. It's second nature to any half decent ball handler and should be something that just works.

That being said, I'm very aware of the fact that zig zag cheese is still, unfortunately, OP and we're working on fixing it for 2K16.

And there you have it. I will move on from this topic at this point. Appreciate all the responses for and against the suggestion. Will buy the game day one and have faith that dribbling will be more balanced than this year. 2k15 was much better than 14 so there is no reason to think that 16 wont be even better.

[thedream2k16]

Re: Getting rid of auto dribbling moves would make ballhandling and on ball defense m

I love threads like this because usually good ideas can come out of them through the course of the discussion... so feel free to keep the discussion going.

Removing auto-crosses (as we call them) is NOT going to happen though. I hated the idea on Elite and I don't think the user should have to micro manage something as simple as keeping the ball in the correct hand as they move around the court. It's second nature to any half decent ball handler and should be something that just works.

That being said, I'm very aware of the fact that zig zag cheese is still, unfortunately, OP and we're working on fixing it for 2K16.

Fixing the movement of user controlled defenders will do a lot of help.