There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

[Sundown]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

I must admit, I am afraid that if 2K attempts to fix the CPU recovery skills, that it will create even more problems.



The game is not perfect, but I really don't want them to attempt a fix and screw up the beautiful game that they already have. Maybe their dev team can't fix it perfectly at the moment? They are human just like us.

Or maybe they can fix it with minimal impact to other areas and maybe they look at a few issues that foundationally improves the game.

Maybe we should let them decide what they can and can't fix given its impact? After all they have plenty of time and patches to rectify this.

[magicman32]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

I posted this in the how to get past cpu thread few hours ago but no answer so gonna ask again here (sorry i can be impatient lol)

I have an issue where when i get past a cpu i do some stutter step dribble after i get past the cpu and it gives them i chance to come back. It must be something im doing with the left stick that is causing this but idk, its happening pretty much every time i get by. Here is a clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUzNMkAONTQ

I was in freestyle/scrimmage mode practice. And I found you get that animation when your timing on the sticks is off. You just need to get better on the sticks and get your timing down.

I've been trying to get into practice mode as much as possible. I don't have whole lot of time to play. I have more time on the weekends, but this game is deep. lol

[manu1433]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

Ironically, this video is a perfect example about why the conversation isn't about player success, but rather CPU behavior. You succeeded in the ideal ball handler situation: complete breakdown and a defender that falls.

Though he is completely beat and out of the play, Nash gets up like Dracula. If he were a taller player, he'd be in position to have somerecovery on a play where he should have objectively no defensive participation for at least 80 frames of user advantage.

2k16 is, in my opinion, the best NBA 2k game, in no small part because of better defense both as player options and with CPU logic. That said, people are absolutely right in wanting to see CPU behavior improved in ball handling situations.

man, I was cracking up when steve nash did that

just floats back to his feet

wow......

[manu1433]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

I was in freestyle/scrimmage mode practice. And I found you get that animation when your timing on the sticks is off. You just need to get better on the sticks and get your timing down.

I've been trying to get into practice mode as much as possible. I don't have whole lot of time to play. I have more time on the weekends, but this game is deep. lol

nah man....that's not stick timing causing those stutters

whenever you land that super fast spin and it launches you, the game is telling you that your stick timing was on the money

there are just invisible walls that your controlled player hits sometimes and I haven't really seen anybody explain them with any sort of sound reasoning

[magicman32]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

nah man....that's not stick timing causing those stutters

whenever you land that super fast spin and it launches you, the game is telling you that your stick timing was on the money

there are just invisible walls that your controlled player hits sometimes and I haven't really seen anybody explain them with any sort of sound reasoning

I will replicate the move when I fire up the game tonight. But it looks like he should of just went into a hesi then a spin then a shot/layup. I don't know if he accidently tapped the right stick again causing the in and out dribble at the end. Or if he held the stick down for the shot. If it's the latter then that would indeed be a problem that 2k will need to fix.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

How fixing CPU recovery logic makes the game MORE Sim:

In most of the situations where the ball handler gains an advantage, it is marginal. By improving the CPU logic, i.e. giving it more options for knowing it has lost advantage, you create more decision making opportunities for both players.

Okay...THIS is thinking outside the box, and I can get on board for this fix. Makes logical sense to me. When I play on-the-ball defense (video game or IRL), when a player beats me off the dribble, I have already made up my mind whether or not I can recover to make a play. If you blew past me, then I more than likely might leak out for an easy fastbreak opportunity. If I think I got a slight chance, I might try to pursue the ballhandler and attempt to block the shot from behind.

I think what you're saying is that AI is not recognizing the "small separation" as being "beaten". As a result, the AI is still trying to position itself in front of the ballhandler which may be causing some wonky animations and collisions, because certain real life movements are not replicated (tripping over a player's feet, body checking not being called fouls, etc) in the game.

Here's the million dollar question. How much space is considered "beaten", before you tell the AI to branch into other decisions/options? In real life, if a ballhandler created more than an arm's length in separation from me, then I considered myself "beaten"; however, there's still that fine line where I might make a play on the ball from behind, leak for a fastbreak, or even rotate to a new player to prevent the kickout depending on how the defense collapsed on the drive.

Now, we're talking basketball....loving this game.

[EarvGotti]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

Since we're talking about CPU behavior....let me make a point. The CPU does not ALWAYS recover when its beaten. I've had many instances where I beat good defenders and bad defenders and they just stand still.

So can we agree to say that CPU unrealistic recovery vs. CPU realistic recovery is about 50/50? Now watch this.....if this is the case and 2K decides to tune this, then that means one extreme will now occur more frequently than the other. If the recovery situations are now being seen at 50/50 clip and they lower CPU recovery skills, then that means 7/10 or 8/10 times the CPU will not recover after a blow by.

This makes isolation easier, drives more successful, and will lead to a breakdown in this beautifully designed defense in my opinion.


This is why i don't want them to tune this aspect of the game. It most likely won't be perfect and if they try to make it perfect in a rushed patch....other areas of the game will be affected.

[manu1433]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

I will replicate the move when I fire up the game tonight. But it looks like he should of just went into a hesi then a spin then a shot/layup. I don't know if he accidently tapped the right stick again causing the in and out dribble at the end. Or if he held the stick down for the shot. If it's the latter then that would indeed be a problem that 2k will need to fix.

trust me, it's the latter and 2k needs to fix it.....i have tons of vids on that stutter animation when the defender is completely behind me when I should have free reign to do whatever I please....it's just like the animation that randomly caused you stop in last year's game when driving into an open lane

[manu1433]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

Watch this video and tell me the CPU isn't acting fishy.

I'm using Steve Nash and this Euro player who is like 8-10 points below in both speed and acceleration is mimicking his exact leg movement down to the exact angle of their feet

same foot leaves the floor at the same time and same foot lands at the same time with the same exact length on their strides.....the Euro player is 6'6

how does this make sense if something isn't up with defense?

has the CPU always mimicked the user in this fashion? If they have I've never really noticed it before this year

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2v91x8x%3E&s=8#.Vgx1zHqrSUl

[Scofield]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

Okay...THIS is thinking outside the box, and I can get on board for this fix. Makes logical sense to me. When I play on-the-ball defense (video game or IRL), when a player beats me off the dribble, I have already made up my mind whether or not I can recover to make a play. If you blew past me, then I more than likely might leak out for an easy fastbreak opportunity. If I think I got a slight chance, I might try to pursue the ballhandler and attempt to block the shot from behind.

I think what you're saying is that AI is not recognizing the "small separation" as being "beaten". As a result, the AI is still trying to position itself in front of the ballhandler which may be causing some wonky animations and collisions, because certain real life movements are not replicated (tripping over a player's feet, body checking not being called fouls, etc) in the game.

Here's the million dollar question. How much space is considered "beaten", before you tell the AI to branch into other decisions/options? In real life, if a ballhandler created more than an arm's length in separation from me, then I considered myself "beaten"; however, there's still that fine line where I might make a play on the ball from behind, leak for a fastbreak, or even rotate to a new player to prevent the kickout depending on how the defense collapsed on the drive.

Now, we're talking basketball....loving this game.

Initially I think it's best to start small (ie obvious). Head and shoulders past someone is beaten. Again, though, it should be stated that these types of warps ect are not game breaking. They do occur and they should be stamped out but they do not require a scorched earth policy. The devs just need to trim the bush .

[Sundown]

There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

Since we're talking about CPU behavior....let me make a point. The CPU does not ALWAYS recover when its beaten. I've had many instances where I beat good defenders and bad defenders and they just stand still.



So can we agree to say that CPU unrealistic recovery vs. CPU realistic recovery is about 50/50? Now watch this.....if this is the case and 2K decides to tune this, then that means one extreme will now occur more frequently than the other. If the recovery situations are now being seen at 50/50 clip and they lower CPU recovery skills, then that means 7/10 or 8/10 times the CPU will not recover after a blow by.



This makes isolation easier, drives more successful, and will lead to a breakdown in this beautifully designed defense in my opinion.





This is why i don't want them to tune this aspect of the game. It most likely won't be perfect and if they try to make it perfect in a rushed patch....other areas of the game will be affected.

2K should tune things so that the unrealistic recovery scenarios are detected and lead to correct alternate behavior, such as turning around without sliding to pursue from behind (and this animation exists in the trailers). It's not like they only have one slider that can only result in one extreme or another. The have access to the code base and can produce proper situational fixes.

Any system that relies on unrealistic recovery 50 percent of the time is not "beautifully designed". No more than if defenders warped to block open shots to make shooting challenging.

[wizfan2]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

Any tips for the sliding and warping the cpu does. I play on hof by the way.

Did you guys notice they added a lateral quickness sliders this year.

[dema]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

I understand the people that want the warping/sliding issue fixed but i would only recommend the developers to fix it if they can do so without lowering the effectiveness of cpu defense at all. The way the gameplay is right now is how i've wanted it to be for years and generally what the operation sports community seems to have wanted as well (we're always making slider sets each year to make the game balanced so that you have to use real basketball tactics), a little sliding/warping that most of the time (sometimes it's obvious) you only really notice on replay isn't worth fixing if it's going to ruin the balance of the game.

Also, i wonder if the user can do the warping/sliding as well? I was thinking you could try using the flick of the stick to do a quick step cut-off or something like that, try doing it in a similar situation as the cpu.

[Sovartus]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

I must admit, I'm rather frustrated with the way defenders have magnetic powers to stay with the ball handler but I would imagine a degree of this clairvoyant ability is necessary to even gameplay.

My issue is with the overall physics and implementation of one on one interaction as a whole. In the guy's video when the defender warped back on ball(and yes, he magically slid back into defensive position), a beaten defender CANNOT recover without help that quickly. A negative backpedal will NEVER be as fast as the forward push from the quads and gluteus muscles when activated.

Addition: Something like this might be easily corrected by adding a transitional motion capture of a carioca step between a backpedal and forward motion to minimize the warping/sliding effect.

Secondly, as a basketball trainer, I teach players to go BY defenders, not around them so the bumping animations by the defense are very video game-ish, not simulation like. Defense is played in 45 degree angles and the (go out and around) U-motion ball handlers must take to beat defenders goes against fundamental basketball. I can beat defenders in 2K16 but I shouldn't have to call an ISO just to do it. I should be able to deliberately attack specific help defenders to collapse the defense or strategically free up logical offensive weapons with the better passing guards.

It is a video game so there is a degree of slack that must be given, but the implementation of defensive on ball pressure needs to seriously be re-examined for NBA 2K17.

[BegBy]

Re: There is nothing wrong with the CPU on-ball defense. Here are some tips....

I must admit, I'm rather frustrated with the way defenders have magnetic powers to stay with the ball handler but I would imagine a degree of this clairvoyant ability is necessary to even gameplay.

My issue is with the overall physics and implementation of one on one interaction as a whole. In the guy's video when the defender warped back on ball(and yes, he magically slid back into defensive position), a beaten defender CANNOT recover without help that quickly. A negative backpedal will NEVER be as fast as the forward push from the quads and gluteus muscles when activated.

Addition: Something like this might be easily corrected by adding a transitional motion capture of a carioca step between a backpedal and forward motion to minimize the warping/sliding effect.

Secondly, as a basketball trainer, I teach players to go BY defenders, not around them so the bumping animations by the defense are very video game-ish, not simulation like. Defense is played in 45 degree angles and the (go out and around) U-motion ball handlers must take to beat defenders goes against fundamental basketball. I can beat defenders in 2K16 but I shouldn't have to call an ISO just to do it. I should be able to deliberately attack specific help defenders to collapse the defense or strategically free up logical offensive weapons with the better passing guards.

It is a video game so there is a degree of slack that must be given, but the implementation of defensive on ball pressure needs to seriously be re-examined for NBA 2K17.

Man crush.