The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

[Goffs]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Does anyone else suspect there are so many settings in now that perhaps some are in conflict?

This is why I try not to mess with the sliders. There's too many under the hood shenanigans I might accidentally mess with.

[Dyslexicphish]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

For someone who decided to pass on NBA 2k17 (after buying every game in the franchise since 2k8) simply because of the defensive AI being horrible, and the fact that defensive attributes mean absolutely nothing (except steal) as I can defend with James Harden like I do with Kawhi Leonard, this thread is like therapy.
Everything I wanted and needed to hear in order to keep my sanity is presented here lol. This thread, along with a Chris Smoove video, is what's going to stop me from buying 2k17 while knowing it's not what I want.

I'm kinda in the same boat as you. I held off on preordering and waited to see if these lingering issues (AI defense is just one of them) had been addressed. Some of them have but too many haven't.

[MarkWilliam]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FQHUZBW93yY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Oh man..... I mean, I've seen this so many times (prior to Sam's great thread) but man....

Not implying anything, but has anyone seen or heard from OG? He was eerily quiet during pre-release and I haven't seen much activity from him on Twitter etc.

Curious is all....

[BegBy]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Oh man..... I mean, I've seen this so many times (prior to Sam's great thread) but man....

Not implying anything, but has anyone seen or heard from OG? He was eerily quiet during pre-release and I haven't seen much activity from him on Twitter etc.

Curious is all....

The lack of communication sucks, I agree, but I don't know if it's as damning as we might think. I am optimistically hoping they are focused on patch work and will let us know when it's more relevant. A patch is coming for sure, that much we know, so yeah...hoping it's all good.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I'm not saying this because I've spoken to anyone on this specific issue, but this should be said.

Just because we think we know who does what, doesn't mean that's how it plays out. This is a HUGE project with tons of collaboration and cooperation on all ends. So just because OG does the defense doesn't mean that the released version of the defense is the last thing he saw.

Think about what we're seeing. Xbox version plays differently. Settings change everything. It's feasible that someone, in any department, can finish their part, but once the game is published, some unseen issue arises that wasn't seen in the last build. I'm not saying this is definitely what happened, but it's definitely possible.

So that said, it's a responsibility when developers let us into that process. Don't abuse that by launching into assumptions and conspiracy theories. I'm on the frontlines when it's time to chastise 2k for their lack of communication, but this year we know that the game released nearly a month early. We know this, they know this. This means less time to check things. This means that they know unforseen(or forseen but unfixable by launch) problems would be there and they are already working on that first big patch. It's a situation where the release of the game is very likely not the end of the launch until that first patch is done.

In other words, they're working. I'm of the personal opinion that there should be someone who does not fix the game who works as a go-between for the devs and the hardcore communities that let's you know, as much as they can, that they are listening and working on fixes.

They're not doing that and that sucks.

But keep in mind that they also can't talk about fixes because they don't want to accidentally make promises and then break them. They have to identify the problem, identify the fix, make sure the fix is working, then they can really come out and talk about it.

I do not like how they conduct things, but let's remain realistic and keep perspective. Conjuring up theories about "OG is mysteriously quiet" has NOTHING to do with identifying and showing the devs the problems, which this thread has been absolutely great about.

[jfsolo]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Born is right of course, but the reality is that when there is a lack of communication on these issues, scapegoating will occur even if it isn't the right thing to do.

[MarkWilliam]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I'm not saying this because I've spoken to anyone on this specific issue, but this should be said.

Just because we think we know who does what, doesn't mean that's how it plays out. This is a HUGE project with tons of collaboration and cooperation on all ends. So just because OG does the defense doesn't mean that the released version of the defense is the last thing he saw.

Think about what we're seeing. Xbox version plays differently. Settings change everything. It's feasible that someone, in any department, can finish their part, but once the game is published, some unseen issue arises that wasn't seen in the last build. I'm not saying this is definitely what happened, but it's definitely possible.

So that said, it's a responsibility when developers let us into that process. Don't abuse that by launching into assumptions and conspiracy theories. I'm on the frontlines when it's time to chastise 2k for their lack of communication, but this year we know that the game released nearly a month early. We know this, they know this. This means less time to check things. This means that they know unforseen(or forseen but unfixable by launch) problems would be there and they are already working on that first big patch. It's a situation where the release of the game is very likely not the end of the launch until that first patch is done.

In other words, they're working. I'm of the personal opinion that there should be someone who does not fix the game who works as a go-between for the devs and the hardcore communities that let's you know, as much as they can, that they are listening and working on fixes.

They're not doing that and that sucks.

But keep in mind that they also can't talk about fixes because they don't want to accidentally make promises and then break them. They have to identify the problem, identify the fix, make sure the fix is working, then they can really come out and talk about it.

I do not like how they conduct things, but let's remain realistic and keep perspective. Conjuring up theories about "OG is mysteriously quiet" has NOTHING to do with identifying and showing the devs the problems, which this thread has been absolutely great about.

Fair enough - I'd like to just highlight that if you're speaking to myself and of my post, I did say I wasn't implying anything.

I merely mentioned OG because he is who I first thought of to try and reach out to directly (via Twitter etc.). Much like I'd do the same to Czar if I had a question about offenses.

Reason I mentioned him being quiet is only because I haven't heard from him on Twitter in a while - curious if he's unreachable for any particular reason.

Definitely not trying to raise any "conspiracy theories".

I agree, this thread is great for identifying issues and hopefully resolving them. I guess I was thinking a direct reach out via Twitter may assist. Maybe I'm wrong but I figure, worth a try.....

[MarkWilliam]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Anyhow.....

OG tweeted that he'll be doing a live stream soon (ACE tutorial). So hopefully we may hear something about the defense (issues, fixes etc.).

Looking forward to this.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Fair enough - I'd like to just highlight that if you're speaking to myself and of my post, I did say I wasn't implying anything.

I merely mentioned OG because he is who I first thought of to try and reach out to directly (via Twitter etc.). Much like I'd do the same to Czar if I had a question about offenses.

Reason I mentioned him being quiet is only because I haven't heard from him on Twitter in a while - curious if he's unreachable for any particular reason.

Definitely not trying to raise any "conspiracy theories".

I agree, this thread is great for identifying issues and hopefully resolving them. I guess I was thinking a direct reach out via Twitter may assist. Maybe I'm wrong but I figure, worth a try.....

This wasn't a direct shot at you. It's more about how people take this sentiment, which is an honest reaction, and run with it. This thread already almost got derailed with that stuff a few pages back. Main thing is, this thread is a shining example that I can use to hold Czar and OG to their word. "Hey, here we have video examples, thoughtful discussion, so let's talk the FIX."

So not only is it in everyone's interest to keep this thread on topic, but I have to call out that for some people, even the genesis of this speculation comes from a place of total ignorance. And I include myself. I'm not specifically aware of how this is all working at 2k. I just know the nature of my ignorance, and the kind of questions that don't apply to reality.

On topic, the great thing about Sam's fixes is that we see how much of this is about settings, and what may be about an unchangeable situation. I do feel like this game is possibly a real gem after a tuning pass.

[MarkWilliam]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

This wasn't a direct shot at you. It's more about how people take this sentiment, which is an honest reaction, and run with it. This thread already almost got derailed with that stuff a few pages back. Main thing is, this thread is a shining example that I can use to hold Czar and OG to their word. "Hey, here we have video examples, thoughtful discussion, so let's talk the FIX."

So not only is it in everyone's interest to keep this thread on topic, but I have to call out that for some people, even the genesis of this speculation comes from a place of total ignorance. And I include myself. I'm not specifically aware of how this is all working at 2k. I just know the nature of my ignorance, and the kind of questions that don't apply to reality.

On topic, the great thing about Sam's fixes is that we see how much of this is about settings, and what may be about an unchangeable situation. I do feel like this game is possibly a real gem after a tuning pass.

No problems - I just felt I needed to clear my comment anyhow - reading it, I can see how it may have appeared sinister to some.

I agree, Sam's fixes are very significant in identifying how deep the issues are/are not which is very encouraging. Ironically since trying them, I've had my *** handed to me twice haha. But that's another thing all together.

I'm curious if there will be intent to make Sam's changes more the "default". I've seen a lot of posters requesting this.

Remove the fundamental issues and the game is gorgeous IMO. But fundamental is definitely the right word.

I feel like the ACE glitch is significant aswell and I'm hoping OG touches on this when he streams.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Yeah OG is doing a stream.

I really hope he walks through these settings, particularly as some seem to clash.

[BegBy]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Bumping. This game would be 100% better if the needless football contact animations and other shenanigans that have been mentioned in this thread are eliminated.

Beluba has been vocal in another thread in the forums and hopefully he sees this.

[Beluba]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Bumping. This game would be 100% better if the needless football contact animations and other shenanigans that have been mentioned in this thread are eliminated.

Beluba has been vocal in another thread in the forums and hopefully he sees this.

Are you talking about offball bumps?

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Are you talking about offball bumps?

This thread here Mike.

It doesnt happen all the time, but it can throw some plays off. We love the off ball physicality but sometimes they stuck in weird animations like in the OP video from that thread.

https://<iframe width="560" height="...reen></iframe>

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Are you talking about offball bumps?

Here are the specific problems I see with the contact initiated by the defense:
-Grabbing from behind is never a foul call. I realize people get away with this, but there is no risk reward. It's effectively a slowdown mechanic. There isn't really even a recovery animation. Running behind a player and grabbing them is simply a good thing to do, and the nature of that is that the defense is compensating for being put in a disadvantageous situation.

-With no offball offensive movement, there are no counters to offball contact. There are no swim moves and push-offs(and of course, corresponding ratings) to allow players to have an linesman's win/loss scenario that you can read as an offense. They are either caught in defensive resistance animations, or they are not. I see these animations in the game, but in MyCareer, we can't trigger them, and on offense, our AI teammates don't seek them out.

-Grabbing off the ball--I love that this is in the game, but it should be something that you're trying to get away with. Under the rim. In a crowd. Right now it's just something that the defense can do to negate speed without penalty.

-Screens. In short, it appears that there are no moving screen calls in the game. I'm in late February of MyCareer and have played several Park/ProAm games and I have not seen one single illegal screen called, and I've seen quite a few of them committed.

-The not-screen screen. The defensive player walking you into the paint, sometimes taking two players with them.

-Teammate contact. Your teammates have no "give" or awareness when you touch them, and are effectively other screeners. A HoF version of Pick Dodger should be applied to brushing past teammates until there is a contextual animation.