The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

[raidertiger]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Just played a game where Jerry'd Bayless made Kyrie pick up his dribble 7 times and flat out just slammed into me, stopping me dead in my tracks 11 times and then the beloved animation where I bounce off him and look like I broke my spine 5 times. There were 2 blocking calls and 1 charge in all of that.

Gerald Henderson made J.R pick up his dribble an astonishing 13 times and ran into me, stopping me dead, 5 times. Blocking was called 2 times, no charges.

Henderson also made LeBron pick up his dribble 2 times and stopped him dead a laughable 9 times. No blocking and 1 charge.

These are pretty average defenders against pretty decent offensive ballhandlers. I'll admit LeBron doesn't have a great handle by NBA standards, but he does maintain ball control very well.

Each of these things happened by the cpu defender by magically getting to where I wanted to be by defying physics entirely and somehow reacting faster than I can input commands.

This is absolutely horrible. The update 2 nights ago made it so that this is now happening on Pro with body up slider, on ball defense and defensive awareness at 0. meanwhile my defenders are literally pylons - a small annoyance to blow past while the cpu spams zig zagging on the way to the rim.

Couldn't possibly be less realistic.

I don't see how anyone let alone the game developers see this as engaging or realistic. The NBA is not this physical. Guys actually do their very best to put hands up and avoid contact in these situations because, well, honestly physics makes it so that they can't react quickly enough to match or beat their opponent. Also the rules say that it's illegal.

I'd pay money to have the gameplay from 2 roster updates ago. These bullet passes and all team NBA defenders with the physical abilities of nothing we've ever seen on this planet is garbage.

Yeah this game feels way more sluggish now after hype (if you can call their marketing strategy that) about feeling more in control.

[BegBy]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Yeah this game feels way more sluggish now after hype (if you can call their marketing strategy that) about feeling more in control.

Oh, you have control. Once you get bodied up and you pick up your dribble, you have some control over who you might pass it to. There's at least an 80% chance that you'll pass it to who you want.

It's NBA authentic.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Bootleg 2K14 LG footage.

https://streamable.com/d639

Is it me or does the CPU look to have an overall better sense of what to do, where to go, how to recover despite me messing around and constantly moving them out of position?

[BegBy]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Bootleg 2K14 LG footage.

https://streamable.com/d639

Is it me or does the CPU look to have an overall better sense of what to do, where to go, how to recover despite me messing around and constantly moving them out of position?

Yeah, I'd say you're right. I guess maybe they seem to be more focused for lack of a better term.

Despite my thoughts of what I believe is overly physical defense I find it really odd that the on ball defenders are so unnaturally and nearly robotic good, yet when they fail it's really profound. Team defense and positioning is also just so far off the mark especially considering you have the on ball defender practically in your hip pocket. How can they be so good, yet so bad at the same time? It makes more sense that they recover by really fast recovery and clipping, warping and herky jerky movements by realizing how amazing they are, so there attempt at salvaging their failed mission would be equally impressive.

I spent a few hours tonight messing with ratings and sliders and I think a huge part of (at least with this build of the game) is just how twitchy and fast and precise some player movements can be combined with how really slow and not precise other player movement can be. Coupled with the really fast pass speed you see a lot of holes in the defense, which can expose the really artificial recovery defense issues mentioned.

It's frustrating for me, but I'm really hoping something gets fixed because I believe the potential for this game is really impressive.

[Thetruth9012]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Bootleg 2K14 LG footage.

https://streamable.com/d639

Is it me or does the CPU look to have an overall better sense of what to do, where to go, how to recover despite me messing around and constantly moving them out of position?

Defense iq is for sure better players know where they are or at least have a clue[emoji4]

Wysłane z mojego LG-H525n przy użyciu Tapatalka

[LorenzoDC]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Just played a game where Jerry'd Bayless made Kyrie pick up his dribble 7 times and flat out just slammed into me, stopping me dead in my tracks 11 times and then the beloved animation where I bounce off him and look like I broke my spine 5 times. There were 2 blocking calls and 1 charge in all of that.

Gerald Henderson made J.R pick up his dribble an astonishing 13 times and ran into me, stopping me dead, 5 times. Blocking was called 2 times, no charges.

Henderson also made LeBron pick up his dribble 2 times and stopped him dead a laughable 9 times. No blocking and 1 charge.

These are pretty average defenders against pretty decent offensive ballhandlers. I'll admit LeBron doesn't have a great handle by NBA standards, but he does maintain ball control very well.

Each of these things happened by the cpu defender by magically getting to where I wanted to be by defying physics entirely and somehow reacting faster than I can input commands.

This is absolutely horrible. The update 2 nights ago made it so that this is now happening on Pro with body up slider, on ball defense and defensive awareness at 0. meanwhile my defenders are literally pylons - a small annoyance to blow past while the cpu spams zig zagging on the way to the rim.

Couldn't possibly be less realistic.

I don't see how anyone let alone the game developers see this as engaging or realistic. The NBA is not this physical. Guys actually do their very best to put hands up and avoid contact in these situations because, well, honestly physics makes it so that they can't react quickly enough to match or beat their opponent. Also the rules say that it's illegal.

I'd pay money to have the gameplay from 2 roster updates ago. These bullet passes and all team NBA defenders with the physical abilities of nothing we've ever seen on this planet is garbage.

I can't get over the contrast between how the game plays now and what it felt like in The Prelude, and how everyone said about the early builds how the game felt so "smooth." That was the word that came up over and over and I said the same with The Prelude. Now it's a bumper car show that takes so much basketball and away and control away from the user.

How did this happen? I just got the XB1 patch last night and if that made things worse I may just stop playing.

I've been spending a lot of time trying to get better at the game and learn stuff because I'm pretty biased toward thinking I need to learn the game every year before I make judgments about it. There is depth in this thing. But there's also a ton of, well, just bad basketball simulation on the game play side. They put in so much new stuff they didn't have time to make it balanced and, well, "smooth."

[Krodis]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I really do think a lot of the issues people are having have more to do with the lack of the game explaining defensive concepts than genuinely bad AI (though there is some of that). It's kind of telling how most of the fixes people try us just telling all their guys to stay on their man. NBA defenses can be awfully unintuitive at times. But I've also had games where I'm playing against the AI and they throw stuff at me that completely throws me off. I was playing against the Cavs as the Raptors (superstar), and while I feasted on Kyrie a lot and got some open threes, they also threw all sorts of looks at me that really impressed me and completely threw me off my game. I've certainly never seen anything like it before in a basketball game.

They just need to explain things better. The defensive ai is a lot more complex this year, and while it certainly makes mistakes and is far from perfect, I think it is actually an enormous improvement overall. But when every team defends pick and rolls differently and helps differently and gaps differently and the game explains absolutely none of it it's no wonder that people are having their defenses break down all over the place.

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[Dione2014]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Nothing more needs to be said. On ball d is completely broken this year.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/bYzb3zln12I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYzb3zln12I

[Yesh2kdone]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Does anyone have a video of these new "bullet" passes?

That's one thing I was happy to hear about, however, i am still sticking with the original default sliders (I purposely chose not to download any patches this year, at least up to this point I still have the original gameplay from day one).

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VI6ShfeCWw8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is a mycareer pass

[RickyRubio9]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VI6ShfeCWw8" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>

This is a mycareer pass

Lol totally. Sometimes games are turnover party.

[BegBy]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I can't get over the contrast between how the game plays now and what it felt like in The Prelude, and how everyone said about the early builds how the game felt so "smooth." That was the word that came up over and over and I said the same with The Prelude. Now it's a bumper car show that takes so much basketball and away and control away from the user.

How did this happen? I just got the XB1 patch last night and if that made things worse I may just stop playing.

I've been spending a lot of time trying to get better at the game and learn stuff because I'm pretty biased toward thinking I need to learn the game every year before I make judgments about it. There is depth in this thing. But there's also a ton of, well, just bad basketball simulation on the game play side. They put in so much new stuff they didn't have time to make it balanced and, well, "smooth."

It's anything but smooth right now. For me nothing seems precise. Everything seems kinda like a crapshoot. I just hope I can move a few feet before I get put into a body up animation or I have to pick up my dribble. It's not fun. I'll admit I only played the last day or so with the intent to tweak sliders and roster edits just to see if I could make movement free, as opposed to however it's described now. Instead I've been playing 2K16. The contrast between the games is staggering.

Just waiting for an update or patch until I actually attempt playing. No desire to try to post guys up as Steph just because I got close to my defender.

[BegBy]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Nothing more needs to be said. On ball d is completely broken this year.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/bYzb3zln12I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYzb3zln12I

At least you didn't get one of the infamous stumble and pick up your dribble animations. For me, every possession that I don't get sucked into a post up animation or a brick wall animation where I pick up my dribble, is considered a win.

It's hard to try and enjoy the game as it is. The sad thing is in other threads and other forums people are actually asking for more physicality and more animations that force dribblers to pick up the ball. All because online modes need some sort of defensive help. There's no way that without the help of artificial defensive boosts that a human can shut down another human online. That's dictated by our reaction times, just like real life. Also lag, so the 2 combined would lead to guys getting abused. And keeping the online community happy takes priority over NBA simulation basketball because online is where the money is at. Literally.

Until there's real NBA team defensive rotations and play, this is what will pass as good d. Having a defender morph through me or keep me defended from behind (like your video) is just expected now, honestly. I literally never touch turbo in the half court because that's an auto stumble/warp/morph/loose ball and makes it worse.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VI6ShfeCWw8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is a mycareer pass

Appreciate the video, but I was hoping to see more regular game speed "bullet" passes rather than instant replay mode. I wanted to see if slow lob floaty passes has been addressed. I wanted to see if passes to someone wide open down in the paint actually gets there before the defense is able to collapse and recover. I wanted to see if pick and roll over the top passes actually has a chance rather than them always getting picked off because the pass always goes in a straight line directly into the defender for a turnover.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

It's anything but smooth right now. For me nothing seems precise. Everything seems kinda like a crapshoot. I just hope I can move a few feet before I get put into a body up animation or I have to pick up my dribble. It's not fun. I'll admit I only played the last day or so with the intent to tweak sliders and roster edits just to see if I could make movement free, as opposed to however it's described now. Instead I've been playing 2K16. The contrast between the games is staggering.

Just waiting for an update or patch until I actually attempt playing. No desire to try to post guys up as Steph just because I got close to my defender.

You mean like this?

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5rJ3tgYT2oc" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Or did you mean this?

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rILFnnsHcCc" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

In fairness, I ended up playing this game very close and, post patch, I felt like there were fewer turnovers and pick up dribble animations. Got pretty realistic stats overall, given the two teams,even though I lost in the last seconds. But after getting smarter with defensive settings and adjustments I was able to compete and play chess with the CPU. I was using ThatMichiganFan's sliders though.

But then there were those two total head scratchers as well. Those were just the ones I captured.

[NoLeafClover]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

It's funny, I was googling something like "how to fix bad AI defense NBA2K17" and ended up here... I must have missed this thread when it was originally posted back in September, but now 7 patches in it's funny to see everything is just as relevant as day 1.

Did we ever receive ANY official communication on defensive rotations not working properly, or was it just glossed over with tweaking shooting sliders and MyPark events?

The amount of games players just randomly helping off their assigned man even when set to Tight/Tight or Smother settings has happen is still as high as ever, and it's gotten even worse now that people have figured out how to exploit big to big passing with manual cuts into the paint - your AI teammates will ALWAYS collapse and leave someone who is a deadeye shooter open.

It's the biggest black mark on this game and has remained that way ever since with absolutely zero acknowledgement from the designers.