The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

[Taer]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Working to improve an ai is one of the most difficult things to do in a game engine. This version of 2k's engine is still the same engine that they had since last gen. Yes, elements of the engine are rebuilt but the core elements are still the originals.

We might need a new engine for the ai to get better.

With all this said, the ACE sub scripting and fine tuning done by the team is still something we should appreciate.

The following sub-systems outside of the ai routines seem to be influencing what we are seeing the most:

• Animations - tight animations allow the ai to adjust faster; loose animations seem to cause ai confusion leading to unforced errors in execution.
• Movement - schemes to influence on the court movement interrupt the ai executing its schemes properly. See auto-stance selection.
• Passing - the passing logic and selection seem to influence the ai by magnifying the errors made.

Perhaps if we organize the issue better, we can see more immediate adjustments and changes made.

[WTF]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I posted a ton of abysmal clips on my twitter last night. Just horrid. It's more prevalent on the ps4. I'm actually enjoying the game a lot on default superstar on x1. Ps4, it's riddled with this junk. It plays so erratic. I tried lowering the game speed, but that didn't help. I want to play on ps4, but at this point, I cant. I played x1 immediately after being so frustrated that I turned the ps4 version off. Lo and behold, I had a great game on the x1, default superstar.

I don't get it.

[Walt Frazier]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I posted a ton of abysmal clips on my twitter last night. Just horrid. It's more prevalent on the ps4. I'm actually enjoying the game a lot on default superstar on x1. Ps4, it's riddled with this junk. It plays so erratic. I tried lowering the game speed, but that didn't help. I want to play on ps4, but at this point, I cant. I played x1 immediately after being so frustrated that I turned the ps4 version off. Lo and behold, I had a great game on the x1, default superstar.

I don't get it.

Having played PS4 and PC...the PC version plays a lot better. I dont like to claim differences as most years it is simoly a placebo thing, but the PC definitely is better than the PS4. Smoother controls by a mile and seems devoid of a lot of the AI junk. Has not had all the same updates though...maybe they are causing the issues?

[rjohns23]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Great insight. Didn't get a chance to read every post but I wonder what setting is most of y'all playing on. I play HOF with custom sliders and do player lock with the PG. and I have also re-done the rosters for more sim aspects.

To me the AI defense is pretty good. Maybe once or twice the CPU does something dumb that converts to a easy bucket but for the most part I have to run plays and play smart ball. When I do break down my defender, the help does come.

I do understand the total frustration. I think 2k just puts the product out there and expect us to edit the sliders and rosters to get the game to play more sim. If that's the case, I don't like that but at least we can change the game to our likening for the most part. The only thing I see broken is when you start scoring, the CPU will double team you no matter what and sometimes their rotations are off.

[WTF]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Having played PS4 and PC...the PC version plays a lot better. I dont like to claim differences as most years it is simoly a placebo thing, but the PC definitely is better than the PS4. Smoother controls by a mile and seems devoid of a lot of the AI junk. Has not had all the same updates though...maybe they are causing the issues?

I'm playing the x1 version right now. This type of stuff still happens, but on a much smaller scale. I'm having a great game right now. I truly don't get it.

[Peninc]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I get the point of the OP. We want the game to mimic real life as much as possible. What he is asking for is something I've wanted to see in 2K for years. Yet somehow I can understand why it's not there yet. The sophistication required in gameplay mechanics and AI complexity needed to pull this off properly must be incredibly difficult to accomplish. I can just imagine, that if they do try to implement it before the AI and player movement is at a sufficient level, it could result in the game being far too easy to exploit.

So we have to think about the fact that a game needs to strike a balance between realism and difficulty based on the tech available. That being said, they have made absolutely monumental strides in the defensive side of the game this year. So much so that if you "think basketball" you know where players are and what is available to you the moment you come off a screen etc. The game is getting better year after year and I don't think we are too far now from where the OP is requesting it to be.

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[Dyslexicphish]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I made a topic about this for 16 that addressed the same issues and had some good responses. Here's a post by Da_Czar in a topic similar to this one addressing the issue. It's pretty long but a good read. Sad thing is this was six years ago so I don't know if and when 2k will properly replicate team defense.

I was thinking that the defensive rotations were so egregiously bad 2k has to know about it. Since this wasn't fixed via patch in 16 I thought it would have been addressed in 17 but that doesn't seem to be the case. So I have very little hope to see it fixed until maybe 18.

[BA2929]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I had a hilarious clip I was going to post on Youtube last night that didn't upload for whatever reason. Here's what happened:

I was playing MyLeague as the Pacers against the Clippers and Jeff Teague was guarding Chris Paul. For whatever reason, CPU controlled Jeff Teague just randomly shuffled across the court and left Chris Paul WIDE OPEN for a 3 (he drained it). He wasn't actively going to double team anyone either. He just randomly shuffled off.

I got so frustrated I bumped the Help Defense slider (the one in the actual sliders, not the coach settings) up to the max. It seemed to help in the two games I used it as I don't remember as many bone headed plays and random stupid double teams, but then again by the time I decided to do that I was half drunk and don't really remember exactly. If you'd like to give it a shot, let me know it goes.

However, I'm still fighting my characters a ton on defense and it's to the point where me controlling on-ball defenders is hurting my team more than helping, especially on the perimeter. If you're not bodying up your man on defense it's nearly impossible to stay in front of them thanks to the animations and how the character reacts. Your guy will get completely turned around for no reason just because you're 3 feet away.

[Optik]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I would like to sit down with the council at 2k and give a dissertation on how and why they need to get rid of the auto turns at half court, at the three point line, and the force field turn on the baseline.

I've been waiting for them to get rid of the forcefields on the baseline and sideline for over four years. I'm pretty sure I asked either Czar or Beluba a few years ago about this and 100% live ball, and the response was something about it being a mess or not thinking the average user could cope with it.

[Americas Team]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Working to improve an ai is one of the most difficult things to do in a game engine. This version of 2k's engine is still the same engine that they had since last gen. Yes, elements of the engine are rebuilt but the core elements are still the originals.

We might need a new engine for the ai to get better.

With all this said, the ACE sub scripting and fine tuning done by the team is still something we should appreciate.

The following sub-systems outside of the ai routines seem to be influencing what we are seeing the most:

• Animations - tight animations allow the ai to adjust faster; loose animations seem to cause ai confusion leading to unforced errors in execution.
• Movement - schemes to influence on the court movement interrupt the ai executing its schemes properly. See auto-stance selection.
• Passing - the passing logic and selection seem to influence the ai by magnifying the errors made.

Perhaps if we organize the issue better, we can see more immediate adjustments and changes made.

Never seen AI this bad in a NBA 2K game, this is the first 2K that's been unplayable to me.

[Taer]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Never seen AI this bad in a NBA 2K game, this is the first 2K that's been unplayable to me.

What level are you playing it on (and console) and do you play with ACE enabled and playcalling off/on?

I'm playing on SS again this year and it seems equal to 2k16 for me with animations, etc mentioned being different causing some of the magnified issues.

Edit: remember since 2k16 ACE is meant to be played without playcalling turned on...

[Americas Team]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

What level are you playing it on (and console) and do you play with ACE enabled and playcalling off/on?

I'm playing on SS again this year and it seems equal to 2k16 for me with animations, etc mentioned being different causing some of the magnified issues.

Im on All-Star, ACE is on. In 16 never notice the AI defense getting stuck behind other players on the court leaving shooters wide open, or randomly leaving players open to go help or double team for no reason.

[antdoggydogg]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I agree with the sentiments regarding dribble driving being a regular part of the NBA.

One thing I'd like to add about unrealistic defense, those moving screens that drag your big man and guard down all the way into the paint and leaving the ball handler open, thats gotta go man. Happens almost every game.

[Peninc]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I've been waiting for them to get rid of the forcefields on the baseline and sideline for over four years. I'm pretty sure I asked either Czar or Beluba a few years ago about this and 100% live ball, and the response was something about it being a mess or not thinking the average user could cope with it.

You can't get rid of the baseline forcefield until you tighten up player movement so much as to give them complete control over where they can start and stop and turn. 2K has made significant improvement in this area but it's not yet polished enough. People would be running out of bounds like crazy if that forcefield wasn't there. What I like is that they have reduced the threshold so if your sprinting in a direction over the line for fraction of a second too long you will go out of bounds.

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[Peninc]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I agree with the sentiments regarding dribble driving being a regular part of the NBA.

One thing I'd like to add about unrealistic defense, those moving screens that drag your big man and guard down all the way into the paint and leaving the ball handler open, thats gotta go man. Happens almost every game.

That might be my only complaint in this year's game against the AI. That and floaty skip passes, especially the ones that always hit the rim when you try to pass from corner to corner.

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