The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

[WTF]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I definitely do....2K16 was up and down with it all year last year but I dont ever think it was as bad as 2K17 is right now.

Maybe I am missing something.

If you figure it out, let me know. I had ZBO catch up to Wiggins last night after I had a good 3 steps on him. Another separate drive, Wiggins cleanly beat his guy on a behind the back, and as I went up for the dunk, Marc Gasol comes over at warp speed from the top of the key, to foul me in a tie up type of animation. It was ridiculous.

[Krodis]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

While there is definitely still some stickiness, I haven't really had the problems other people seem to be having. The CPU gives you a lot more space this year, so just trying to blow by them typically won't work unless you have someone like Westbrook. If I get them on the move with passing or dribble moves I see plenty of ride animations and the like. Or get them on their back feet and pull up. And while the AI is far from perfect, I think the rotations and decision making has been vastly improved. Sometimes it makes poor decisions, but I think some of that is tied to ratings. And it's hard for the ai to know what you're thinking (and vice versa) so you won't always be on the same page on defense(and, no offense, but I think a lot of people don't really understand the principles of modern NBA defenses. A lot of complaints I've seen about bad rotations are actually the absolute correct rotation within certain NBA schemes. Not perfect obviously, but sometimes guys do just get left open because the defense has to pick their poison). I mean obviously it still has a ways to go, but it is a video game after all.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[BezO]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

With regards to CPU defenders stickyness/mirroring.. You feel 2K17 is worse than 2K16? I think 2K17 could still use some work, but to me it feels better than 2K16. I'm convinced its a boost that the devs build in the game for balance. I wish they'd remove it

I believe where 2K17 excels is in the ride animations. I seem to trigger them fairly frequently, get to the lane and either finish, get blocked, get fouled or kick. The frequency makes 2K17 much better than 2K16.

But the more comfortable I get with the sticks, the more I'm able to get the CPU out of position and the more they seem to burst back into position. Because I trigger the ride animations more often, overall 2K17 is better. But when these burst happen, it's about as bad as 2K16. Yeah, they have to get rid of whatever is triggering this.

[ch46647]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Agreed 100%. I'll go back to my Durant example... I'll hace durwnt on the other teams PF, should be a blow by, but the CPU seens to recognize the mismatch and it gives the CPU artificial boosts to avoid being beaten easy.

We should be able to explode by then and the CPU should adjust wirh rotations (ace)

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Great post. There are a lot of bad things going on with the AI. I think the biggest problem is that 2k has too much going on under the hood. They have been overambitious adding things to the game while also taking shortcuts and neglecting legacy issues. It's missing key basketball fundamentals.

I would love for them to spend one cycle just fixing and tuning, rather than adding and expanding, but it would never go over well because people would complain about how not enough has changed. Those on top at 2k would never allow for it either.

I am really hoping that the post release support is big this year. This is the first time I am actually regretting buying the game. As a strictly offline vs CPU guy, I just can't play it in it's current state.

Here are some highlights and brief comments from a game I just watched, CPU vs CPU. I do this every year when I get the game to see how the AI is. It is a game within a game for me to edit and tune sliders to max out the CPUs potential. I saw a couple of odd things and decided to start recording them, and after the game was over I ended up with 7 minutes worth of short clips of the AI just being plain awful. Trust me, I am not one of those guys who gets his kicks from hating on 2k. I have always loved this game, but I am losing my faith.

Just check this out. CPUvCPU on superstar default. This is all from the same game. Please forgive my terrible editing skills.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5whUDJRHS7I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This video is just excellent. I couldn't applaud it more.

If you figure it out, let me know. I had ZBO catch up to Wiggins last night after I had a good 3 steps on him. Another separate drive, Wiggins cleanly beat his guy on a behind the back, and as I went up for the dunk, Marc Gasol comes over at warp speed from the top of the key, to foul me in a tie up type of animation. It was ridiculous.

I played the Knicks in MyCareer yesterday and Porzingis beat everyone down court in such comical fashion I spent the next 3-5 minutes replaying it. The AI seems to completely ignore the acceleration stat on D, especially on fast breaks or rebounds.

[Taer]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

either in a patch or next year we need the devs to focus on great defenses being better at help, switching, rotation and giving up the lower percentage option. Less on unrealistic collisions and speed boosts.

I'm late to the thread but this is something I've been ranting to myself for years on.

The last two years have been a change in defensive play - but I fel it has been a transition from animations being chained together to give the illusion of defense to the dominance of the defensive collision -reaction to the collision

Its related to the steals - in an attempt to prevent button spamming we have evolved from being caught in animations to determine steal success into now an era of collision-based reaction to determine success. Its a band-aid approach that should be completely rebuilt.

Edit: One of the most effective ways of running a 2k17 defense is to act as a sheep dog on bigs during the transition. If you are smart enough you can collide with both bigs and sometimes one of the perimeter players just enough to confuse the ai

Speaking of which the ai (un)intentionally uses this strategy during your transitions - if you get stuck behind a big "transitioning" it is almost worth just turning around and staying where you are at instead of "fighting back".

[Dione2014]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

2K first needs to clean up the help d and switches before they can rely on help and fighting around picks the way teams do in the NBA. Guys get completely lost out there on the court. They especially get lost after screens. They just completely lose track of their man after getting around a screen. This kind of stuff just shouldn't be happening. I have a ton of these clips saved up for proof.

The a.i just isn't smart enough to be able to handle dribble penetration like guys do in the NBA, and a patch isn't going to fix this. There's just too many moving parts that go into replicating that kind of awareness of NBA team defense vs what they can do with the a.i. Also too many long drawn out animations holding guys down for to long in one position (forced 3 in the key calls). Most times i drive past a guy the opposing teams big is caught in a 2 man animation with my big giving him no chance to rotate over. Resulting in a lot of clean layups off of drives.

With all of this said i still love the game. I just think this is where the series needs to revamp the way defense is played. Nobody likes unrealistically sticky defense. I've been playing ball for more that 18 years. In the most non bragging way i could possibly tell you. there was never a time I felt like i couldn't drive past a defender whenever i wanted. That's because all it takes is having a step on a guy and you've beat them. This is far from the case in 2K because like you said, it's a band aid to cover of the poor rotations and help D.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1fnJXemPP2c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fnJXemPP2c

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jhVGWc6SZhc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhVGWc6SZhc

[WTF]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

That Westbrook clueless defense happens WAY too often. The DRose is just sad, lol.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Haven't read through this entire thread but has any of the developers addressed the defensive side of things (either in this thread or another) and the quirks where players are out of position? Is this done intentionally? Even though I am enjoying the game, players being frequently out of position does make me wonder what's going on programming the defensive artificial intelligence.

[ch46647]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

This thread is depressing to me. I was very excited for 2K17 and when I firsf started playing I thought the gameplay had finally taken the leap it needed. Unfortunately, these under the hood issues are rearing there head more and more.

These videos essentially tell me their defensive AI is way behind, and we're going to have another year of artificiial boosts from the CPU defenders.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FQHUZBW93yY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[PhantomLord]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Great post. There are a lot of bad things going on with the AI. I think the biggest problem is that 2k has too much going on under the hood. They have been overambitious adding things to the game while also taking shortcuts and neglecting legacy issues. It's missing key basketball fundamentals.

I would love for them to spend one cycle just fixing and tuning, rather than adding and expanding, but it would never go over well because people would complain about how not enough has changed. Those on top at 2k would never allow for it either.

I am really hoping that the post release support is big this year. This is the first time I am actually regretting buying the game. As a strictly offline vs CPU guy, I just can't play it in it's current state.

Here are some highlights and brief comments from a game I just watched, CPU vs CPU. I do this every year when I get the game to see how the AI is. It is a game within a game for me to edit and tune sliders to max out the CPUs potential. I saw a couple of odd things and decided to start recording them, and after the game was over I ended up with 7 minutes worth of short clips of the AI just being plain awful. Trust me, I am not one of those guys who gets his kicks from hating on 2k. I have always loved this game, but I am losing my faith.

Just check this out. CPUvCPU on superstar default. This is all from the same game. Please forgive my terrible editing skills.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5whUDJRHS7I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

THANK YOU. This video is the perfect example of basically everything wrong with this game. The devs need to see it. I want to love this game... it does so much so well. But defense is 100% broken and I cannot play the game like this.

I honestly don't understand the strong review scores. Are that many people ignorant about the actual game of basketball? The defensive AI is laugbaby broken. The game cannot be an 8 or 9 out of 10 in this state. It just can't. I wish I could enjoy it like many seem to be... but when 30% of plays every gam feel completely unfair and uncontrollable because of awful programming, I can't. Hopefully they make some fixes.... but I fear there is too much wrong here for patches to address.

[ch46647]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Hopefully this poor defense is a result of a glitchy ACE system. I reeeaallyy hope the developers can fix this in a patch.

If these issue cannot be fixed, I'll probably have to trade the game in. But I defintitelt do not want to..

[raidertiger]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FQHUZBW93yY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I'm glad an important voice is pointing this out. Smoove is making a fair few negative 2k videos which is great for fixing the product.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Hopefully this poor defense is a result of a glitchy ACE system. I reeeaallyy hope the developers can fix this in a patch.

If these issue cannot be fixed, I'll probably have to trade the game in. But I defintitelt do not want to..

Hopefully it can be fixed.

Weve had issues on defense in the past but not quite like this. Its gotta be frustrating for MC players who can only control one player.

Maybe ACE itself has something to do with it....these things started last year....the first year it was implemented.