NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

[SonicMage]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

Maybe Pipen was programmed to stick with Grant when Pippen is "X" distance away from Grant. But because Pippen starts at X+10 units (or whatever distance) from Grant, then that Pippen needed to pick up the closest man, which was number #18 at the lower corner which is why we see Pippen drift towards that direction.

A bit of an oversimplification. It's not just distance that has to be accounted for, but also who is set as that defender's assigned man in the rotation. And Hill was clearly the closest man until Pip decided to run towards the baseline in the other direction. So that's two strikes. The fact that Lanier got chosen as the main priority for Pip happened incorrectly and also prematurely. One thing that'll help figure out some of these issues is that new defensive callout floating text as well as the defensive assignment arrow. I'd be curious what both were set to for Pippen if the user had immediately switched to controlling him on D. It'll be a good way to debug issues like this as they occur.

In other words, I do think the bug starts off with the initial setup.

I'm in total agreement with you here. In fact, I'm ignoring the rest of Pippen's behavior once Hill gets to the top of the key, just because the user Rodman found out what was going on and started to cut off the passing lanes. It's a broken defensive rotation at that point.

Hopefully, this is just an inbound defensive issue and not a widespread problem.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

^True. There are definitely more factors and variable at play that needs to be accounted for to determine what was the root cause. It's definitely more than just a single variable. It's a collective.

So hopefully those that believe this was some type of proper defensive lack of awareness sequence can see that it in fact is a bug.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

A bit of an oversimplification. It's not just distance that has to be accounted for, but also who is set as that defender's assigned man in the rotation. And Hill was clearly the closest man until Pip decided to run towards the baseline in the other direction. So that's two strikes.

Spoiler

The fact that Lanier got chosen as the main priority for Pip happened incorrectly and also prematurely. One thing that'll help figure out some of these issues is that new defensive callout floating text as well as the defensive assignment arrow. I'd be curious what both were set to for Pippen if the user had immediately switched to controlling him on D. It'll be a good way to debug issues like this as they occur.




I'm in total agreement with you here. In fact, I'm ignoring the rest of Pippen's behavior once Hill gets to the top of the key, just because the user Rodman found out what was going on and started to cut off the passing lanes. It's a broken defensive rotation at that point.

Hopefully, this is just an inbound defensive issue and not a widespread problem.

I was just looking over the entire Pippen sequence again. And I think your very first post about vector and direction was probably more apt to what was happening.

I'm thinking the vector/direction Pippen was suppose to be following was completely flipped upside down, and somehow reverted back to normalcy as Hill and Pippen crossed path. Hill and Pippen's initial separation angle were complete opposites and most notably the speed at which they left their initial spot were simultaneous and with approximately the same velocity. The whole sequence was for Hill and Pippen to move in a counterclockwise direction. Instead some bug caused Pippen to move in a clockwise direction.

Screenshot below. Also take notice of the exact moment when Pippen and Hill (yellow boxes) hits those particular spots. I'm hypothesizing that if Pippen had followed Hill in the counterclockwise direction, Pippen would have "known" what to do. But Pippen's clockwise movement to the 5 o'clock position left Pippen completely clueless "where is Grant Hill that I am suppose to be guarding."

The situation reverted back to normalcy when Hill/Pippen met at the 5 o'clock position. But, if Grant Hill would have received the pass exactly at the yellow box, and followed through with a jump shot, I bet Pippen would still be spastic near the baseline. What we have here are characters programmed to "follow" command scripts telling them what to do if the opposition does X, Y, Z. Initially I was thinking in terms of character truly having its own set of artificial intelligence that they can self manipulate in an unlimited fashion as they see various situations playing out, thus I mentioned the distance between Pippen and Grant Hill. It is because motion and player movements are still set to A, B, C, then X, Y, Z, thus bugs can arise. I'm hypothesizing that if the players had true artificial intelligence to the point where the defensive is truly "read and reactive," such bugs may or may not be present.

Pippen Gif

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<iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/AptPepperyIrishredandwhitesetter' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' allowfullscreen width='640' height='360'></iframe>

EDIT: Just wanted to add two more screenshot that likely supports our hypothesis that it's a bug related issue.

Spoiler

Additional screenshot 1: As soon as Hill and Pippen reach their "bugged" targets (respective yellow boxes), Pippen is in a defensive stance that matches a stance that would have been the perfect animation to defend Grant Hill. Green circle Pippen's stance is the same exact stance of the Yellow box Pippen and it fits perfectly to defend Hill (Yellow Box). The green circle would have represented Pippen's true location.


Additional screenshot 2: Easier to decipher looking at the gif, but the following capture shows the direction Hill moves (red arrow) and Pippen moves (yellow arrow). They both move in unison. Player movements are programmed with a set of restricted boundaries. As Pippen's movement hits the restricted boundary, we see Pippen immediately move in the opposite direction, now towards Hill. All of these movement seems fully connected to each other.

[JoFri]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

^True. There are definitely more factors and variable at play that needs to be accounted for to determine what was the root cause. It's definitely more than just a single variable. It's a collective.

So hopefully those that believe this was some type of proper defensive lack of awareness sequence can see that it in fact is a bug.

I see the Pippen issue as a bug.
That Rose issue - I see as defensive lack of awareness or whatever its called.



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[strawberryshortcake]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

Note: For anyone who is completely over the "Rose defensive awareness" gif, please skip this post.

Spoiler

I see the Pippen issue as a bug.
That Rose issue - I see as defensive lack of awareness or whatever its called.



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Yes, two completely different things sure. Someone mentioned the Pippen sequence as being purposely programmed to represent low "defensive awareness." That is why I mentioned the Rose sequence about defense awareness. Hate repeating myself about the Rose sequence, but all I'm saying (which most people seem to overlook constantly about the Rose situation) is this....

I don't have a problem with purposely programming in poor defensive awareness. That is needed. My problem is how it is expressed in the form of animation; the animation should look athletically realistic. Imagine you were in the shoes of virtual digital Derrick Rose in that same sequence.... You may take the same route, but you'd certainly do it (express it) visually differently when it's all said and done. If you were being filmed defending the same sequence as Rose, and you replay the footage back of yourself, would you zig zag back and forth just like he did?

A baby toddler crawls from point A to point B. A human being walks from point A to point B on two feet. They are both getting from point A to point B, but by different methods. Probably a bad analogy and it's not meant as the perfect analogy either. It's just to clarify that they achieve the same outcome but through different means. If the director of animation wanted the 3D animator to animate a 35 year old Joe Smith walking from point A to point B, if the 3D animator animates Joe Smith crawling from point A to point B, then I would imagine the director would not be happy with the results. Derrick Rose zig-zagging back and forth is not representing proper defensive awareness action.

If you're going to program poor defensive awareness and poor defensive routes, at least have the proper animation to go along with it. Running a 40 meter dash. Don't have an animation where someone is speed walking--a speed walking animation is not going to look proper in a 40 meter dash situation. Have an animation where the person is actually leaning forward, running with quick legs, head tilted downward initially but the body transitions to a more upright position.

http://forums.operationsports.com/fo...post2048983489

Spoiler

On that particular play, the user was controlling Rodman guarding the inbounder. It is very hard for me to believe the movement of Rose was representative of a real defensive reaction. Rose was basically zig zagging in a z-fashion back and forth towards the the perimeter and backwards towards the paint.

My concern is the contextual awareness animations. Let's put it this way, if everyone was simply a "box/circle/dot" to represent the X and O on a whiteboard, and the coach was drawing up plays, I will sort of reluctantly give the sequence a pass. But Rose zig-zagging into position is simply unusual as if the proper animation weren't triggering. As stated earlier, passing the ball into the paint and the offensive post player shifts behind the defender is simply awkward.

It's the type of or how the animations that plays out or doesn't play out that I'm most concerned about if you're trying to create "poor/terrible" defensive sequences. What's going on with Rose is that there simply isn't enough proper animations to represent the route he is taking. If you want to keep the same route that Rose takes, then better animations are needed to represent the bad angles and mistakes he is making because zig zagging like that simply looks awkward

Spoiler

[8KB24]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

I stand corrected. This could potentially be problematic if it continues.

Didn't see the gif best I could since I was watching it on my mobile phone while in public transportation.

[JoFri]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

https://youtu.be/Zqcxpv7QoK4

Gotten this clip from the highlight thread posted by Yeah...THAT Guy

I notice LBJ running towards the arc out of Curry's screen, and I didnt see KD doing a fake off-ball action faking LBJ. In all basketball sense, he should be following KD by going under off-ball Curry's screen and not go one round like a clown.

I suspect it could be the Cpu defense scheme that made LBJ going over the screen instead of under the screen.

If setting to Auto is what we get for this from our AI teammates defending the off-ball players, suggest to set go under. This is just prelude, so hoping this is not happening in actual gameplay for 2K18.

[Goffs]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

Now that the game is out...I'm not liking this Otto Porter defense. I'm getting burned by threes....I thought the cpu would adjust when two or three goes in and starts to cover....nope he's camping under the rim leaving the guy WIDE open.

How do I fix this horrible game choice design?

[Goffs]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

Now that the game is out...I'm not liking this Otto Porter defense. I'm getting burned by threes....I thought the cpu would adjust when two or three goes in and starts to cover....nope he's camping under the rim leaving the guy WIDE open.

How do I fix this horrible game choice design?

[The 24th Letter]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

Now that the game is out...I'm not liking this Otto Porter defense. I'm getting burned by threes....I thought the cpu would adjust when two or three goes in and starts to cover....nope he's camping under the rim leaving the guy WIDE open.

How do I fix this horrible game choice design?

Set your team defense to 'straight up' and make any individual adjustments from there. The coverage should look more like this than the exaggerated Otto placement...





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[Goffs]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

Set your team defense to 'straight up' and make any individual adjustments from there. The coverage shpuld look more like this than the exaggerated Otto placement...





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Cool will do this. Still would be nice if cpu was smart enough to adjust accordingly.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

Yep...I honestly havent even tested it much on default to see if it does...I like to keep things simplified so I know exactly whats going on. Does every team do the Otto thing? I wonder if the defensive ACE release is out yet.

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[Goffs]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

Yep...I honestly havent even tested it much on default to see if it does...I like to keep things simplified so I know exactly whats going on. Does every team do the Otto thing? I wonder if the defensive ACE release is out yet.

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From my experience it looks like every team does this. It's annoying but I will wait for the updates.

[jfsolo]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

From my experience it looks like every team does this. It's annoying but I will wait for the updates.

I think that it's a design choice by OG, so I'm not sure that any update will change it. I think that Users will have to make defensive adjustments for whatever team we're using to limit or stop it from happening.

[jlaz]

Re: NBA 2K18 AI Improvements Blog From Scott O’Gallagher

Set your team defense to 'straight up' and make any individual adjustments from there. The coverage should look more like this than the exaggerated Otto placement...





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straight up always meant that defenders would play moderately on and off ball, right? and thanks, ill try it.