NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

Thanks for answering my questions big czar. Now i wonder what are the values/combinations of ratings & tendencies to dictate what hidden archetype a player is assigned. I only ask this from a roster editor standpoint. I understand that you said this system is hidden but still i had to ask lol.

LOL. I KNEW you were going to want that info. I don't know about putting that out but it might help I cringe at some of the changes roster editors make cause i know they are destroying my back-end systems and the game won't quite play right. LOL.

I don't keep those numbers on the top of my memory and they can and do change year to year but I will think about it.


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[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

Czar! Great work fam. One question though, while on the topic of AI, does the help defense react better to screen plays? I've found that over the years it's way too easy for a man to get open with no help.

OG is the best person to ask about help defense. I think it is better than last year for sure but I don't know what exactly bothered you from last year. So get the demo and see if it seems improved to you.

We have so much variation and offer so many options it is difficult to distill stuff a like this becasue it depends on the team you have, the team you are playing, what level you are on and what has happened in the game.

The help varies based on all that.

Some users want to see a lot of help and some don't want any AI defenders to leave any offensive players.


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[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

Czar,



Thanks for finally doing something while at work.



I appreciate it.

LOL. Forget what I said earlier about OS old heads posting more. Just stay away!


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[Taer]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

...
As with everything there is still room for improvement but for a single dev cycle he put a tremendous amount of work into this. definitely worth the time to try it out.


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This applies to all of you. The fact that you all remain so dedicated and that you, Scott, Mike and the others with roots here continue to care about and try your best to at least consider minority base concerns, keep me loyal.

I always appreciate that you all try to maximize the ai systems and mechanics application in such modes as MyCareer; it may never be at the level I would like to see but there is always effort to make sure everything is as consistent across all modes as possible.

In another thread you say you try your best to give us all "something" and that is very true, year in and year out.

Usually, the things you, Scott and Mike do are enough to take me through an entire NBA cycle. So thank you for everything all of you do every year.

[ffaacc03]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

LOL. I KNEW you were going to want that info. I don't know about putting that out but it might help I cringe at some of the changes roster editors make cause i know they are destroying my back-end systems and the game won't quite play right. LOL.

I don't keep those numbers on the top of my memory and they can and do change year to year but I will think about it.


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Please do, as well as what values dictate what players consider poor, average, good and elite defenders when isoing.

The more info is known, the more the users will be able to fit the game into their own views. I know you know, but to many of us, being granted more customization, editing and options is a big of a staple of the franchise as providing a sim approach ... but many times we are tasked with trying to descipher what variables interact on a given scenario and how those variables are weighted or chained together, and is a HUGE task, if only we had more info (not only for editing purposes but for understanding gameplay related outcomes) ... then again, it makes one really appreciate what some custom rosters can achieve without such specific knowledge.

I know that there must be some intellectual property info that needs to be kept but surely not most of it and ultimately would say that definitively understand that of development nature and not as much that of roster editing.


Anyways, THANKS, again and again.

[Da_Czar]

NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

Czar will the ISO recognition also apply to bigs who find themselves guarded by small so the post?

If they have the ball when they hit a iso score check ? Definitely, we added that to the check logic, so it will compare offensive post-up vs post-up defense.

But we also have general mis-match logic that the Ai uses.

Not saying you will see this all the time but I captured in an AI vs AI game where the Warriors sent durant on a post cross screen and then he was supposed to run off a double screen and the AI killed the play as durant was about to run off the screen and quick posted him.

We also have mismatch nodes in ACE that look at positional mismatches and will funnel more post plays to that player.

In ACE each coach can have a different tolerance for going at POSITIONAL mismatches. That means having Isiah guarding Westbrook in the matchups = positional mismatch.

Each coach can also determine how big the mismatch has to be before they change their game-plan to go at the mismatch.

The original game-plan is overridden and they will pick on that mismatch.

This is the same for Iso mismatches and Iso tolerance can be different than post. Between iso mismatch and post mismatch. It's crazy!

If i wanted to each lineup could have thier own tolerance but that is too fine for the amount of teams we currently support. LOL. Our engineers is nice fam. ( understand I am talking about AI capabilities actual results can vary but we have the tech part covered.)

So we have multiple layers of mismatch detection. Where we still need to impove is getting this all to work for user teams in Mycareer.


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[Impetuous65]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

delete Msg

[Baebae32]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

LOL. I KNEW you were going to want that info. I don't know about putting that out but it might help I cringe at some of the changes roster editors make cause i know they are destroying my back-end systems and the game won't quite play right. LOL.

I don't keep those numbers on the top of my memory and they can and do change year to year but I will think about it.


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Lol understood Big Czar. I only ask because I dont want to destroy your back end systems with edits. Thanks again for being active in this thread. Very much appreciated man.

[trekfan]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

Nice. So, having the system proficiency score directly influence a players playing time ? That's hot. Yeah we are no where close to that at the moment but we got it system built, so now we can expand it.

As a devils advocate what if Deron was a better overall player but the other guard option scores higher for the system. How should the AI handle those situations ?

Would an AI still look smart starting Hornacek over Jordan because Hornacek is a better fit in the system ?

If Deron was a better overall player, but the guard behind him was a better fit for the system, right now Deron would get the start. Better overall=better player, according to the AI.

Ideally, with the system proficiency feature in place, a players fit would dictate his playing time ... IF the coach in question was hardcore like that.

In the coach settings, as I recall, there's a slider that's called "Bench Depth" that determines how deep a coach goes into his rotation. I think now that we have system proficiency, we can add in a new slider like:

1. System Loyalty -- how "loyal" (for lack of a better term - I have not yet had my coffee, lol) a coach is to certain system. Take for instance Popovich and Phil Jackson. Pop is a coach who has a history of adapting to his personnel and the times -- he's not a slave to any one system. So Pop's loyalty score would be low, signifying a willingness to change systems on a season-to-season basis (doing so in season would be a headache, both in-game and IRL) and a willingness to play players with better overalls over players with better fits within his system.

Jackson, however, is a slave to the triangle. So Jackson's system loyalty would be very high as a coach so, if a player fit better with his system but had a lower overall than the guy behind him, Jackson would likely start the better fit player.

You wouldn't want that to be set in stone, however, and so I would stick in a range -- say if the two players in question are within 4 points of one another in overall rating, than the coach will swing to the better fit player (with the lower overall) and keep the better overall player as the backup.

That range, however, would shrink depending on how low the system loyalty score was. So for Pop, his loyalty score being lower (let's say 40-50 range), that range is probably 2 points in overall rating -- which means that even if the better system fit player is a 73 and the better overall player is a 76, Pop goes with the 76 guy despite his system proficiency score being 2 stars and the 73 guy's score being 4 stars.

That way, in a case of Jordan vs Hornacek, you clearly know Jordan's overall will be much higher than Hornacek, so Jordan would get the start even if his system proficiency is lower (and his tendencies to freelance on his own, outside the system, is greater).

[Da_Czar]

NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

Completely understand. I always wondered why we couldnt get the plays mixed and matched as we choose. The plays and freestyle offenses, get better every year, and the flow tech looks to add in that area. We appreciate you AI work in our MLO.


Have the big men gotten better at finding open space around the rim when their defender leaves to them to help?

Nothing specific has been written yet to cover that so any improvement you might see will be incidental. I know it is important but other things have been priority but i did remove some legacy code that had those dudes cutting to the rim on drives when there wasn't a lane and just clogging things up.

Would be interested to hear when would you expect a big to cut and when would you want him to spot-up ? would you want that based on solely tendencies or opportunity ?


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[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

Damn straight. You have to give credit where credit is due, and credit is definitely due.



I'm just hoping Czar and Mrs. Czar drop another Night Before 2k this year. That'd truly take me back...

Man it's too few people who could even understand that fam. That turned into a OS #Simnation CLASSIC.


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[Baebae32]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

Nothing specific has been written yet to cover that so any improvement you might see will be incidental. I know it is important but other things have been priority but i did remove some legacy code that had those dudes cutting to the rim on drives when there wasn't a lane and just clogging things up.

Would be interested to hear when would you expect a big to cut and when would you want him to spot-up ? would you want that based on solely tendencies or opptunity ?


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A "dive on drive" tendency maybe Czar? Guys with a low value here would prefer to shoot the little 4-6 foot shot and guys with a high value would dive for drop off layups, dunks, and potential lobs. Could even be useful for wings like Wade and Lebron who like to cut from the top of the perimeter on baseline drives. Might be a bad idea on my part Just throwing something out there

[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

I'm jus worried abt two things :

1. irl, the passer has to be able to understand and familiar with Curry's tendency. In this video Curry made a lot of offball shoulder or smallstep fakes. If u play bball, u'll know sometimes this fakes can fake the passer too. If this were replicate in-game, not sure if the AI logic would program in such a way that the ball goes out of bound (if user is a passer and Curry is AI teammate doing all those off-ball fake moves) or resulting an awkward animation in receiving the pass and ended up not in a good position for a shot. As a SIM player, i'll prefer the former as I dont mind getting faked by my AI teammate in a video game ... LOL.



2. Look at how fast the ball is moved and how Curry runs to cut to the spot to get open looks at the perimeter (double screen at the low block). The shot clock is running at 18 sec when he caught the pass and shoot. In 2K17 running with the same play, it would have been down to less than 5 sec. We probably need the player to run faster with lesser player collision in the video game, or have the shot clock running slower (but that will mean playing a full game for over an hour with all the half time shows). How does flow tech comes into play in this context - lesser player collision hmmm? Player collision is real and should exist but should not be overdone like in 2K17.



Having said, like this video (tks to stillfeelme) and Czar's gameplay update. Can't wait to run the motion offense and Floppy plays with the Spurs!

We are not at that level where you really have to be concerned about missing the receiver because you got faked out.

What is most likely to happen is you get a catch in a different location than you would have if you had waited to see what route the man running off the screen actually took.

So if curry wanted to curl can you passed it early and it was open instead of getting a layup you would receive a catch out at the three. You may throw a pass or two away but that should be an anomaly.


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[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

No Spotup shooter ID? Did you forget to type it out or are spotup guys included in the "cutter" ID?



Regardless i really loved what i read there. It's good to know the game has a good self-awareness of what players can do on the court based on their attributes and tendencies, because then you know that when players develop over the years in MyLeague mode the computer will dynamically recognise and use them in appropriate ways. It makes player development a really fun concept.

I edited my post we don't have spot-up but we do have shot-mid and shot 3, If you look they correspond to play-types. That is why there is no Spot-up


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[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA 2K18 Offensive Tendencies, AI Execution & Motion Blog From Da_Czar

But "they" say 2K gives us the same game year after year, right?



Czar, question for you.



Will we manually have the ability to edit a player's tendency to Iso vs.



Poor

Average

Good

Elite



Defenders?



I already have plans for my digital Nick Young and Dion Waiters.



Also, can you please put back in the "Da Czar" dunk from 2K12?

Yes the new tendencies are all editable. And NO yall ain't clowing me fam.


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