Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

But that dynamic shooting motion literally cannot be replicated with a controller. Do you shoot in real life by pulling your thumb down and letting it go after a second? It's not even close to the same thing.

The meter doesn't change the release timing in the game; it is simply a way for the game to say, "your form was off on that shot." In real life you can feel it because you're the one with the ball in your hands, and you know your own shooting motion. In the game, the "proper" release point for each animation is decided by the game, not the player. So even if I'm consistent with my release, it may not be the "correct" timing. But there's no way to know that without some sort of visual cue.

Again, I'm not saying that a green release should be an automatic make. It should only be a way for the game to say your form was correct.


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The shot meter measures timing....not form. The shooting aspect of the game is about timing...not form. Since the meter measures timing, how hard is it to go into practice mode and learning the timing for the team you use? With practice, you should eventually learn the timing which will lead to the muscle memory for the button or shot stick. Why do you need the visual cue in a live game if you practice?

Players have amnesia when it comes to shooting. If you miss, then shoot again. If you miss, then shoot again. If you miss, then shoot again. At some point, your muscle memory for the button or shot stick should kick in. If you're still missing, then it's just time to move to Plan B, and you'll just have practice again once the game over.

After enough games and practice, you should just "know" the releases of your players. You shouldn't need a visual cue to tell you when to release the shot.

[El_Poopador]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

The shot meter measures timing....not form. The shooting aspect of the game is about timing...not form. Since the meter measures timing, how hard is it to go into practice mode and learning the timing for the team you use? With practice, you should eventually learn the timing which will lead to the muscle memory for the button or shot stick. Why do you need the visual cue in a live game if you practice?

Players have amnesia when it comes to shooting. If you miss, then shoot again. If you miss, then shoot again. If you miss, then shoot again. At some point, your muscle memory for the button or shot stick should kick in. If you're still missing, then it's just time to move to Plan B, and you'll just have practice again once the game over.

After enough games and practice, you should just "know" the releases of your players. You shouldn't need a visual cue to tell you when to release the shot.

You're making huge assumptions with that logic though.

First, you assume that everyone has time to spend learning the release for every player and shot type. Since there are different timings for a set jumper vs a fadeaway vs a post fadeaway vs a leaner, you're looking at 5+ different releases to learn for every player on your team.

Second, you're assuming that everyone only plays with one team. Maybe I want to change it up once in a while and play with a team I've never used before. By your logic, even I have a higher basketball IQ than my opponent and get better looks by running a proper offense, I should be disadvantaged because I'm not familiar with how the game measures their release timing.

Third, you assume that everyone uses default rosters. I rarely have my players use their default animations because they don't look like they do in real life. So even though I do get used to my team's releases, if I go online, those releases are completely different. And that doesn't even account for the lag introduced by playing online.

You're contradicting yourself by saying that you want realism, but would rather have stick skill be more important than basketball IQ and knowing your players' strengths and weaknesses.


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[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

You're making huge assumptions with that logic though.

First, you assume that everyone has time to spend learning the release for every player and shot type. Since there are different timings for a set jumper vs a fadeaway vs a post fadeaway vs a leaner, you're looking at 5+ different releases to learn for every player on your team.

Second, you're assuming that everyone only plays with one team. Maybe I want to change it up once in a while and play with a team I've never used before. By your logic, even I have a higher basketball IQ than my opponent and get better looks by running a proper offense, I should be disadvantaged because I'm not familiar with how the game measures their release timing.

Third, you assume that everyone uses default rosters. I rarely have my players use their default animations because they don't look like they do in real life. So even though I do get used to my team's releases, if I go online, those releases are completely different. And that doesn't even account for the lag introduced by playing online.

You're contradicting yourself by saying that you want realism, but would rather have stick skill be more important than basketball IQ and knowing your players' strengths and weaknesses.


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1) Time is important, because I complain about it all the time when it comes to VC grinding. However, practicing jumpers and learning releases is a lot less demanding. Personally, I spend like 30 minutes per player to learn their releases, then I play some games. If I had a tough time using a particular player, then I go back and practice with that player again.

2) In my defense, I already stated that people who want to use multiple teams are a very small minority. That's a personal choice you make as it's a personal choice for me not to buy VC.

3) I was talking exclusively about online play (PNO, ProAm, and MyPark) and taking out the shot meter. Last time I checked, customer rosters can't be used online. I don't play in leagues, so I can't speak on that.

I'm not contradicting myself, because I don't believe that the shot meter is realism. Period.

EDIT: Yeah, you're right. Let's agree to disagree, because I'm just being stubborn. I normally turn it off. NBA 2K15 was the only time that I kept it on consistently, but then I discovered that there were some player jumpers that were broken. Then came the infamous patch where getting green releases became easy across board.

[Baebae32]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Crazy how this thread went from a discussion about potential game mechanics to guys arguing about the shot meter. Oh well.

[El_Poopador]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

1) Time is important, because I complain about it all the time when it comes to VC grinding. However, practicing jumpers and learning releases is a lot less demanding. Personally, I spend like 30 minutes per player to learn their releases, then I play some games. If I had a tough time using a particular player, then I go back and practice with that player again.

I have maybe 4 hours per week to play video games. Not just 2k, but all games. I know tons of people with the same time constraints. 30 minutes per player on a 12 man roster is essentially a week and a half just to learn shot timing by your estimate.

2) In my defense, I already stated that people who want to use multiple teams are a very small minority. That's a personal choice you make as it's a personal choice for me not to buy VC.

I don't think it's a small minority, but even assuming it is, you're essentially saying you have to pick one team to play with if you want to play online.

3) I was talking exclusively about online play (PNO, ProAm, and MyPark) and taking out the shot meter. Last time I checked, customer rosters can't be used online. I don't play in leagues, so I can't speak on that.

My point here was that I play with completely different releases offline than what is forced online. In many cases, different players as well, because trades and free agent signings in my personal franchise aren't reflected online either. So even if I spend the time practicing offline and learning the timings, it won't help once I go online and the animations are different.

I'm not contradicting myself, because I don't believe that the shot meter is realism. Period.

EDIT: Yeah, you're right. Let's agree to disagree, because I'm just being stubborn. I normally turn it off. NBA 2K15 was the only time that I kept it on consistently, but then I discovered that there were some player jumpers that were broken. Then came the infamous patch where getting green releases became easy across board.

I would prefer to not have the timing be included at all. When I play offline, I use ratings only, because I like having the player ratings and shot quality be the deciding factors.

But if they are going to force the release timing on us, I prefer having feedback to let us know if we got it wrong.



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[WarMMA]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

All I know is I better be hitting majority of my open shots when i'm using really good shooters. 2k18 pissed me off so bad with this cuz i'd be missing waay too many open good release shots with guys that are great shooters like McCollum or PG. I remember one game I literally missed 3 good release open shots in a row with a sharpshooter. And then to make things worse, when my timing is off and I get a slightly late/early release, I hit the shot lol. For a competitive game like this, that kind of stuff is crazy.

[Keith01]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

All I know is I better be hitting majority of my open shots when i'm using really good shooters. 2k18 pissed me off so bad with this cuz i'd be missing waay too many open good release shots with guys that are great shooters like McCollum or PG. I remember one game I literally missed 3 good release open shots in a row with a sharpshooter. And then to make things worse, when my timing is off and I get a slightly late/early release, I hit the shot lol. For a competitive game like this, that kind of stuff is crazy.

Wide open = make it. Contested = miss it. This ain't rocket science 2K!

P.S. Kick the deadeye and limitless range badges to the curb. That'll fix half the problem.

[triplechin]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

It's a videogame though where the players themselves control the dynamics and probability of stuff and success rate of stuff. Also gotta take into account context and advanced stats. How many of those NBA players' contested shots were vs low-"rated" or undersized defenders? I think all the ratings and all the basketball logic should be factored in, but at the end of the day, a game should not REWARD contested looks. What's the point of playing defense if it does.

Not to mention those metrics are loose with the way they count contested shots. Shots count as contested even if the defender is just standing there without his hand up. As long as he's within 4 feet it counts as a contest by the measurement they use with that stat.

Right, that's what I was trying to imply when I said shot quality and stuff without spelling it out. I'm not saying those should be the exact stats to base ratings off of, but it's a solid base. And what is this about REWARDING contested shots? A lower percentage is a punishment not a reward

[4xChamp]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Wide open = make it. Contested = miss it. This ain't rocket science 2K!

P.S. Kick the deadeye and limitless range badges to the curb. That'll fix half the problem.

i agree with everything even deleting dead eye badges too but i just think limitless should be nerfed by a couple feet in range, like limitless silver becomes the new limitless hof, then i think it will be fixed

[Comduklakis]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

This discussion shows the chasm between SIM types and arcade guys. Even when presented with evidence that the top shooters in the game don't hit sixty percent on open threes, they want to knock down all their open shots.

[Cavs2016]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Wide open = make it. Contested = miss it. This ain't rocket science 2K!

P.S. Kick the deadeye and limitless range badges to the curb. That'll fix half the problem.

But that’s not how basketball works. It’s too hard to hit contested shots in my experience (all star based sliders). There’s no shooters feel or confidence to pull up from sweet spots with timing.

As a shooter, I never felt like a shooter in 2k.

Rhythm, space, skill, timing. I never really felt that feel on a court.

For instance, LeBron James has incredible shooter’s feel and shot selection. Everything is naturally and instantaneously calculated. He doesn’t take off dribble jumpers within the offense unless the feel is optimal. And when he does, goodnight.

He does this with drives too. He’ll get to his sweet spot (where his footwork/explosion to the rim will be most efficient), and then use hesitation dribbles to draw an optimal moment to attack.

LeBron’s game is extremely calculated and efficient in year 15.

You can not replicate this well at all in 2k.

2k lacks depth in true basketball feel, and a lot in what makes basketball truly beautiful and addicting.

[WarMMA]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

This discussion shows the chasm between SIM types and arcade guys. Even when presented with evidence that the top shooters in the game don't hit sixty percent on open threes, they want to knock down all their open shots.

Not all, but most. Irl unless they are having some off night where they are just plain cold, top shooters are nailing most of their open shots. That's facts i'm sure you know. I don't mind missing once and a while...that's realistic. But when i'm wide open/good release, I should be able to nail most of my shots with knockdown shooters.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Wide open = make it. Contested = miss it. This ain't rocket science 2K!

P.S. Kick the deadeye and limitless range badges to the curb. That'll fix half the problem.

I’m too lazy right now to read the entire thread, but when playing 2k, are we saying that if I’m able to play lockdown hard nose right in your face defense for a full 48 minutes with all shots contested, my opponent/cpu should have a 0% shooting percentage and zero points, 110 - 0 final score? I’m sure some individuals did bring up contested shot makers in the nba on a daily basis in this same thread.

Not all, but most. Irl unless they are having some off night where they are just plain cold, top shooters are nailing most of their open shots. That's facts i'm sure you know. I don't mind missing once and a while...that's realistic. But when i'm wide open/good release, I should be able to nail most of my shots with knockdown shooters.

I’m going to interject, "facts," .... can we get some nba statistics for wide open shots? Is there even a stat on this? Are we just saying it’s fact because it makes sense theoretically? When watching the NBA, I see contested shots go in many times, and when it's against my hometown team, the Warriors, I even get dejected saying "are you kidding me?" I get a love-hate feeling for this when playing 2k18 and I completely welcome it because it feels "real" if that makes any sense.

[WarMMA]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I’m going to interject, "facts," .... can we get some nba statistics for wide open shots? Is there even a stat on this? Are we just saying it’s fact because it makes sense theoretically? When watching the NBA, I see contested shots go in many times, and when it's against my hometown team, the Warriors, I even get dejected saying "are you kidding me?" I get a love-hate feeling for this when playing 2k18 and I completely welcome it because it feels "real" if that makes any sense.

I mean when I watch NBA, unless they have an off night, I see good shooters hitting most of their open shots. I too have a love-hate relationship with this game too, cuz sometimes i'm shocked at hitting a contested shot and other times i'm baffled at how I missed a wide open/good release 3pt attempt three times in a row with CJ McCollum. Granted that doesn't happen often at all, but that one sent me off the deep end lol. I just want a game with shooting that doesn't "cost" me, so to speak. I don't mind missing a good shot every now and then, but majority of the time when I pick my shots right(open/wide open), with the right players(that are good shooters), have good timing, ect, I should be rewared. I think that's nothing more than fair...especially in such a competitive game like this.

[4xChamp]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

if y'all want to hit bad shots vs computer play rookie mode, im starting to think people that advocate dead eye badge shooting style, are just not very good at basketball, sorry but it needs to be said

i just hope 2k dont let offline wishlist bleed into online wishlist, cause thats what seems to be the problem with 2k these past couple years it seems