2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

[TeamBuilder]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Lets see what happens when we actually make players "positionless".

Listing all players at PG/NA (taking away positions) results in the following 2K generated lineups:

Sixers
PG: Josh Richardson
SG: Ben Simmons
SF: Matisse Thybulle
PF: Joel Embiid
C: Al Horford
Not starting: Tobias Harris

Lakers
PG: Rajon Rondo
SG: LeBron James
SF: Anthony Davis
PF: Kyle Kuzma
C: Dion Waiters
Not starting: Danny Green, Avery Bradley, JaVale McGee

Nuggets
PG: Monte Morris
SG: Jamal Murray
SF: Nikola Jokic
PF: Paul Millsap
C: Will Barton
Not starting: Gary Harris

Rockets
PG: Russell Westbrook
SG: James Harden
SF: Robert Covington
PF: P.J. Tucker
C: Austin Rivers
Not starting: Danuel House

Nets
PG: Kyrie Irving
SG: Kevin Durant
SF: Spencer Dinwiddie
PF: Caris LeVert
C: DeAndre Jordan

Knicks
PG: Elfrid Payton
SG: Frank Ntilikina
SF: Kadeem Allen
PF: Julius Randle
C: R.J. Barrett
Not starting: Mo Harkless, Taj Gibson

Mavericks
PG: Luka Doncic
SG: Jalen Brunson
SF: Seth Curry
PF: Tim Hardaway Jr
C: Kristaps Porzingis
Not starting: Dwight Powell, Dorian Finney-Smith

It was an interesting theory.

You realize that you are ABSOLUTELY proving my point, right? That categorizing players by position is dumb. You are freaking out and bolding the players that are stupidly listed according to the archaic position-based system. ACTUALLY LOOK AT THOSE GROUPS OF FIVE. They all have skills that compliment each other and each would make serviceable lineups (and that's without even having a system in place that prioritizes attributes more than positions). The only reason you see anything wrong with those groups of five is because you are stupidly looking at categorical positions.

Haha, "Oh no Dion Waiters is a center! Oh golly, how awful." Look, genius, Anthony Davis is protecting the rim and guarding the post. Your precious positional system is the only thing that is messing up those lineups. Haha, wow, I can't believe I had to explain that to you.

Lol, thank you, thank you, thank you. Not only did you prove my point, but you also did the work to provide the evidence that proves my point. Wow, you make things so easy. I'd love for you to be the lawyer on the other bench.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

You are freaking out and bolding the players that are stupidly listed according to the archaic position-based system.

Haha, "Oh no Dion Waiters is a center! Oh golly, how awful." Look, genius, Anthony Davis is protecting the rim and guarding the post.

*Facepalm*

Except he's not. That isn't how the AI works. Davis won't operate in the post - he'll be standing on the 3pt line in Lakers sets. Because like it or not, teams still run 1-5 sets.
He'll function as a "3" in the Lakers playbook. He'll guard other "3s" on the other end.

You have yet to show any indication of actually comprehending how the AI works in the game, nor how many gameplay elements are actually tied to positions.

But by all means, continue to fantasize about being remotely correct.


Side note: it's pretty comical you take no issue with Waiters starting over Green/McGee/Bradley, lol

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

I'm glad I don't come from the same place. Also, I did explain it to you...

You haven't explained anything...again. Between what I know about computer programming /AI plus Rashidi's in-depth knowledge of rosters and stats, you haven't came up with a value argument for positionless basketball. Rashidi is pretty much hitting on what I would expect would happen if you take out positions and value attributes (and possibly overall) in the offline modes. Also...you're forgetting how positionless basketball would affect how playbooks are incorporated in the game which Rashidi is bringing to your attention. Are you expecting REAL NBA coaches to rework their playbooks to satisfy 2K Sports' vision of positionless basketball?

tru11's comments addresses the MyPlayer aspect. Just because a person is not "labeled" a center, their game style could reflect the characteristics of a traditional center. Removing the label of "center" precisely does what for the MyPlayer mode? Not a d*mn thing....

[HBKSean216]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Guards/wings/bigs.

It really would open up so much. It needs to be in all modes. MyLeague, PNO, MyCareer all should be this way. It would help in match making in Rec. The MyPlayer builder would be more open. Instead of guards only picking PG for better stats and flooding the match making system so you have 3 PGS when you're trying to fill out a full 5. Rotations in NBA games would be able to feature your best scorers regardless of whether they're a PG/SG or a SG/SF. I just think the game would feel better all around.

yeah... no. It's supposed to be a sim game not NBA Jam. If you load into rec and there is 3 PGs just leave... that's on you for staying. The "picking the PG for better stats" complaint is true but also very false. It depends on the build and what stats you want to improve. I average 17 9 and 3 in the rec with my 6'4 slashing playmaker PG. My friend is a sharp facilitator SG and averages 21 a game. We have had PLENTY of games where the small forward (3 level SG/SF, 2 way slasher, pure slasher) scored 30+. That SF wasnt the best player on the team but he still was the best scorer that game. I am not trying to be a cockhole but your comments/issues are extremely subjective.

[howardphillips214]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

yeah... no. It's supposed to be a sim game not NBA Jam. If you load into rec and there is 3 PGs just leave... that's on you for staying. The "picking the PG for better stats" complaint is true but also very false. It depends on the build and what stats you want to improve. I average 17 9 and 3 in the rec with my 6'4 slashing playmaker PG. My friend is a sharp facilitator SG and averages 21 a game. We have had PLENTY of games where the small forward (3 level SG/SF, 2 way slasher, pure slasher) scored 30+. That SF wasnt the best player on the team but he still was the best scorer that game. I am not trying to be a cockhole but your comments/issues are extremely subjective.

Sure, if there's enough shooting around them i have no problem with 2 way finishers. What i have a problem with is getting 2 non shooting bigs and a forward that can't shoot as well. I've had games where there's NO shooting 1-5 and won. But i tell you, id much rather be undersized with shooting than oversized with none and that's facts.

[TeamBuilder]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

*Facepalm*

Except he's not. That isn't how the AI works. Davis won't operate in the post - he'll be standing on the 3pt line in Lakers sets. Because like it or not, teams still run 1-5 sets.
He'll function as a "3" in the Lakers playbook. He'll guard other "3s" on the other end.

Did you ask yourself why Davis won't operate in the post and will simply stand at the 3 point line? Because the game insists on categorizing players by positions. So when it lists him at "SF," guess what? He stupidly doesn't play to his strengths. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM ARGUING THAT THEY SHOULD REMOVE. Players in this game should occupy spaces on the floor that allow them to excel and mix into lineups with other players based on their complimentary attributes, not simply force them into areas based on a foolish position system that locks them into archaic spots.

You are once again, exactly proving my point. I say, "hey positions are stupid and 2K should remove them in favor of an attribute/skill-based lineup system." And your response is to argue against me by saying it doesn't work because the game A.I. categorizes players by positions... WHICH IS WHAT I AM ARGUING IS THE PROBLEM. Just because you edit player positions to make them all PG/NA, it doesn't mean you have removed the positional system from the game. That's why you see the stupidity of the A.I. saying Anthony Davis has to sit on the wing -- BECAUSE THE GAME IS STILL LISTING HIM AT A POSITION.

It's like you insist on trying to prove me wrong my further proving me right. Again, it would be awesome to see you on the other bench in a court room.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Did you ask yourself why Davis won't operate in the post and will simply stand at the 3 point line? Because the game insists on categorizing players by positions. So when it lists him at "SF," guess what? He stupidly doesn't play to his strengths. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM ARGUING THAT THEY SHOULD REMOVE. Players in this game should occupy spaces on the floor that allow them to excel and mix into lineups with other players based on their complimentary attributes, not simply force them into areas based on a foolish position system that locks them into archaic spots.

You are once again, exactly proving my point. I say, "hey positions are stupid and 2K should remove them in favor of an attribute/skill-based lineup system." And your response is to argue against me by saying it doesn't work because the game A.I. categorizes players by positions... WHICH IS WHAT I AM ARGUING IS THE PROBLEM. Just because you edit player positions to make them all PG/NA, it doesn't mean you have removed the positional system from the game. That's why you see the stupidity of the A.I. saying Anthony Davis has to sit on the wing -- BECAUSE THE GAME IS STILL LISTING HIM AT A POSITION.

It's like you insist on trying to prove me wrong my further proving me right. Again, it would be awesome to see you on the other bench in a court room.

You're really not getting it, are you?

The Lakers have a playbook.
The Lakers' playbook have positions.
The play runs according to what player are in what positions.
In order for them the game to "know" how to navigate players on the floor according to the playbook, each player must have an assigned "value" aka position.

What you're suggesting is removing the assigned value of the player (at this point, I don't give a damn if you call PG, 1, 10, 500, CA, India), but the programming is supposed to sophisticated enough to say "Hey, AD will act as this "dot" in the playbook based on his ratings/attributes/tendencies.". What would need to happen is that the dot will need "qualifiers" to determine which player would best fit the dot. Given that there are five players for each play, that would mean five different qualifiers for each dot. Okay...what decides the "qualifiers" for each dot which would lead to the question of...what is the intended outcome for this particular dot in this play?

Given that you're throwing positions (which really simplifies AI actions) out the door, the software will have determine what it "values" in any given matchup for a particular team. Since each team have different strengths and weakness relative to their matchups, the software will most likely create a different starting lineup based on the "qualifiers" for each dot in the playbook. If you want to throw the playbook out the door and have the AI figure it out on the fly, then you're looking for dynamic artificial intelligence.

https://resources.pros.com/home/dynamic-artificial-intelligence

I hate to bust your bubble, but dynamic artificial intelligence BARELY exist.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

What's f*king ironic is that REC is an example of dynamic artificial intelligence (10 humans), but even we follow predetermined actions based on our "positions".

[Real2KInsider]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Did you ask yourself why Davis won't operate in the post and will simply stand at the 3 point line? Because the game insists on categorizing players by positions. So when it lists him at "SF," guess what? He stupidly doesn't play to his strengths.

You seem to think the game functions on base tendencies. It does not come remotely close to accomplishing this.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM ARGUING THAT THEY SHOULD REMOVE.

You're arguing that they should remove foundations of gameplay code, because that would make for a better gaming experience. Got it. Lmao.

Players in this game should occupy spaces on the floor

AKA positions

that allow them to excel and mix into lineups with other players based on their complimentary attributes, not simply force them into areas based on a foolish position system that locks them into archaic spots.

You realize all 30 teams in the league use this "archaic system" IRL right?
(oh right, you are convinced beyond reasonable doubt that they don't).

https://medium.com/@KJ_THE_SCOUT/nba-5-out-secondary-actions-6362d082e2d9

That's why you see the stupidity of the A.I. saying Anthony Davis has to sit on the wing -- BECAUSE THE GAME IS STILL LISTING HIM AT A POSITION.

Nope! The game determined his perimeter skills make him an ideal wing. They did the same for Nikola Jokic. ANY position can have a post player. Kobe didn't play center. The AI consequently prioritized ball-handling for the positions (areas of the floor) that require it.

You can argue until you're blue in the face yet you obviously have no comprehension of how the AI or coding works (much less NBA basketball). Nor do you respect the years of time/effort developers put into even getting the system to where it is today.

Want to see the change? Put the work in. Show the developers how to make it happen. Get paid for it.
You can't do it. You don't have the heart or the knowledge. Prove me wrong.

[hesko]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Sounds interesting. If ppl are already complaining about "demigods" how would making the game "position-less" make it any better? I'm willing to bet a free copy as soon as they take it out, ppl are gonna want it back. Seems like most ppl play guard anyway.

[hesko]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

The developers have the "knowledge".
Regardless of how it's delivered to them pos/neg, I think ppl
wanna see legit change. IMHO I'm waiting for other (basketball)
aspects of the game to catch up with the graphics and gameplay.
Really wanting gameplay kinks to get ironed out asap!
it weakens the gaming experience.

[hesko]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Plus I'm tired of paying $60 a year to be an unofficial game tester.
Start a 2K21 should be completely basketball thread.

[howardphillips214]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Sounds interesting. If ppl are already complaining about "demigods" how would making the game "position-less" make it any better? I'm willing to bet a free copy as soon as they take it out, ppl are gonna want it back. Seems like most ppl play guard anyway.

This is true. But if people are going to keep going for the best ratings,like having 3 PGs on the same team, why not? We already get SFs at the 4 quite a bit. I've run the 5 on my SF with randoms before. I'm just saying... We're halfway there already.

[Housh123]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Guards/wings/bigs.



It really would open up so much. It needs to be in all modes. MyLeague, PNO, MyCareer all should be this way. It would help in match making in Rec. The MyPlayer builder would be more open. Instead of guards only picking PG for better stats and flooding the match making system so you have 3 PGS when you're trying to fill out a full 5. Rotations in NBA games would be able to feature your best scorers regardless of whether they're a PG/SG or a SG/SF. I just think the game would feel better all around.

I think we suggest things that would be great if 100% of the 2k community were players like you and me. A suggestion like this would hurt players who purposely make SGs to play off the ball. If guard play were TRULY positionless you’d have taller guards occasionally running PG even if they made a Kyle Korver type player.



In your suggestion is who plays what position random or are you locked into the position you grade highest in?


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[splashmountain]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

the NBA isn’t position less despite what people claim.

and what will this solve? people will still make shorter guards for the speed.

it will be what i said in previous threads. a 6'6 an under league.

Why have bigs at all if they are going to nerf their ability to be big and make layups/dunks? so all smalls. lol.