2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

[howardphillips214]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

You have a rich fantasy.

You have any data that supports those players playing all 5 positions and equal amount of the time?

Actually do you have any data at all other then something that happend 1 time 2 years ago?

Is harris a 1,2,3,4 and 5?

Green played the 5 and not iggy?

Any more nonesense?


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Magic Johnson in the 80s and 90s used to play 1-5.

This isn't some new phenomenon. Iverson's whole career they wanted him to play PG. He was a natural 2.

Basketball is a fluid game. There are things about the game that can't be quantified. Confidence and momentum are probably the biggest pieces of the game and will never be duplicated in a digital game.

Why are we still stuck in "oh, he's a PG... No, he's a SG."?

That's some nerd **** bro.

Watch some hoops, bruh. You might learn something.

[TarHeelPhenom]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

To make it completely positionless, you would also have to drop the guards/bigs/wings.

I'd be 100% on board for removing positions. Positions are dumb and archaic. It's all about particular skills (attribute ratings from a 2K perspective). So-called NBA analysts criticized Houston when the Rockets decided to "go small" because they didn't have a "traditional center" in their rotation. Covington can protect the rim well enough to cover for the rim protection that most "traditional centers" offer... so what if he's not 6'10" or taller? Most teams don't have a large, powerful, low-post threat who can punish them for that anyway.

Positionless is the way to go. It's silly to stick to an old categorical way to oversimplify the game.

Also, 2K does a terrible job at representing player OVR ratings because of the stupid attribute weighting at each position. I wrote about it 2 years ago.
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...l-ratings.html

They look good in this year's Finals...last year's too. Oh wait...

[tru11]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Magic Johnson in the 80s and 90s used to play 1-5.



This isn't some new phenomenon. Iverson's whole career they wanted him to play PG. He was a natural 2.



Basketball is a fluid game. There are things about the game that can't be quantified. Confidence and momentum are probably the biggest pieces of the game and will never be duplicated in a digital game.



Why are we still stuck in "oh, he's a PG... No, he's a SG."?



That's some nerd **** bro.



Watch some hoops, bruh. You might learn something.

Uhhh no.
Magic played primary The point.
In his career he only player the 1980 finals at center.

Iverson could play both the SG and the PG position and the game already has him labeled as just that.

Take your own advice dude.

Your clearly have no clue on what you are talking about as always.




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[howardphillips214]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Uhhh no.
Magic played primary The point.
In his career he only player the 1980 finals at center.

Iverson could play both the SG and the PG position and the game already has him labeled as just that.

Take your own advice dude.

Your clearly have no clue on what you are talking about as always.




Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

You've obviously never heard of a "combo guard" then. Someone who plays the 1 and 2.

Also, tons of teams run a 3 guard line up.

This is just a dumb argument. There's no reason why instead of a Primary and a Secondary position, you could literally go to "guard/wing" system so your automatic subs could roll out 3 guard line ups or 4 wing line ups.

There's no reason to hold the game back, man... You can always improve.

But whatever... You're just gonna disagree no matter what.

[tarantism]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

I think that there is a big cross contamination between fundamental understanding of "positions" and "roles".

LeBron James is a forward. Ben Simmons is a forward. The both handle playmaking duties for their teams, which makes you think "Point", but ball handling duties don't mean that the player's basic position is different. People use the term "Point Guard" because its easier than saying "forward who has substantial playmaking duties".

Patrick Beverly is commonly referred to as a PG simply because he is usually the smallest player on offense. In reality, Beverley is not asked to be the primary point of attack and is generally more of a SP (secondary playmaker) or pure Wing. This is a common issue in categorizing players because many casual fans think stature = position.

Giannis plays as a big on offense. Yes, he gets assists but a lot of that comes on the short roll and kick outs. Giannis might eventually play as more of a Wing (he has the physical profile and ball skills for it) but in modern basketball he isn't enough of a shooter yet. Plus he is so tall, quick and strong that he is an automatic mismatch when his feet touch paint. Thus it doesn't matter if you want to call him a SF, PF or C, he is a "Big" or "5" on offense and because he is a focal point player you build around that.

Basically, the way that I like to see it is that there are three roles on offense: guards, wings and bigs. That refers to the areas on the court and jobs in different actions that players take part in. The PG, SG, SF, PF, C denominations are just a way to specify exactly what players are doing what when outlining actions or drawing up set plays.

In the scope of NBA 2k, the issue is that certain aspects of the game are totally unbalanced and unrealistic. They would need to give player builds and archetypes realistic strengths and weaknesses based on physical limitations. Also stop making shooters overpowered with automatic green releases. Then you'd see both more balanced character creation and more realistic play on the court. They desperately need to overhaul playbooks as well - they are archaic.

That is all assuming that they want to create a sim basketball experience, though, and even if the devs want that, 2k obviously does not. So if a sim experience is what you're looking for I suggest simply ignoring MyPlayer, the park mode, ProAm and MyTeam. Stick to edited rosters and offline play. Its the only hope.

Tl;dr: it doesn't really matter and changing the character labels won't make a difference.

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[Real2KInsider]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Indeed in current NBA positions are meaningless, teams allocate the most appropriate defender in regards to the role and impact (playmaker, 3&D, ...), and not the position. For instance Warriors won't let Curry defend the PG if he is strong offensively, they will put Klay on him, and let Curry defends the second guard.

Switching matchups doesn't mean they change positions.

Positions matter for substitution patterns (which definitely still exist, even if people think they don't), and the game is already trash at handling those w/o breaking it even further.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Giannis will grab a rebound, take 5 steps and he's at the other rim smashing on people. He quite often will set up the offense in the half court set. I'd say he's much more a PG than any of the other 4 positions and leads his teams in assists more often than not.

Ah, so Eric Bledsoe is a SG then? Good to know. This also does a great job explaining why Giannis was in a 3-man frontcourt rotation w/ Brook Lopez & Marvin Williams.

That breaks the entire formula.

Have you heard of "Play Initiator"?

[Real2KInsider]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Also, here's a good way to indicate whether Giannis is ACTUALLY running the offense as a PG.

Pick & Roll Offensive Possessions
31% George Hill
30% Eric Bledsoe
19% Khris Middleton
19% Donte DiVincenzo
7% Kyle Korver
7% Giannis Antetokoumpo
5% Pat Connaughton
2% Marvin Williams

Holding Turbo on the fastbreak is not being a PG. He is a PF/C on offense (and defense). If you really think Giannis remotely compared to LeBron this year you need to watch more games, no way around it.

Giannis: PF/C
LeBron: PG/SF
Luka: PG/SF

Referring back to this: LeBron was literally a PG/SF this year. Rajon Rondo is his backup. Anytime LeBron checks out, Rondo checks in. This is evident from studying Lakers sub patterns throughout the year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/plus-minus/202010020LAL.html

(This includes when Avery Bradley was playing. KCP was his backup. Which is why KCP has been starting w/ Bradley out).

Anytime LeBron checks in next to Rondo, he's a SF. It means he's checked in for either KCP or Danny Green, and is looking to receive the ball rather than create.

[tarantism]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Referring back to this: LeBron was literally a PG/SF this year. Rajon Rondo is his backup. Anytime LeBron checks out, Rondo checks in. This is evident from studying Lakers sub patterns throughout the year.

this is the important point. People pay too much attention to perceived player positions instead of paying attention to how they are actually used during a game.

It 2k terms that means PG/SG/SF/PF/C, though in actual basketball it really depends more on strategy. The term "positionless basketball" is really just a crude way to attempt to explain position players occupying non-traditional roles in an offense.

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[howardphillips214]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Also, here's a good way to indicate whether Giannis is ACTUALLY running the offense as a PG.

Pick & Roll Offensive Possessions
31% George Hill
30% Eric Bledsoe
19% Khris Middleton
19% Donte DiVincenzo
7% Kyle Korver
7% Giannis Antetokoumpo
5% Pat Connaughton
2% Marvin Williams

Holding Turbo on the fastbreak is not being a PG. He is a PF/C on offense (and defense). If you really think Giannis remotely compared to LeBron this year you need to watch more games, no way around it.



Referring back to this: LeBron was literally a PG/SF this year. Rajon Rondo is his backup. Anytime LeBron checks out, Rondo checks in. This is evident from studying Lakers sub patterns throughout the year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/plus-minus/202010020LAL.html

(This includes when Avery Bradley was playing. KCP was his backup. Which is why KCP has been starting w/ Bradley out).

Anytime LeBron checks in next to Rondo, he's a SF. It means he's checked in for either KCP or Danny Green, and is looking to receive the ball rather than create.

This is my point. Too many people are trying to explain it with stats and numbers. The Bucks run a 5 out all game. That means for any one play, anyone can be the PG in that play by your definition. Middleton can run a PnR. So can Bledsoe.

How about this metric? Who gets the most touches? Who brings the ball up the court for the Bucks the most?

What I'm asking is Giannis a Guard, a Wing or a Big? He can play all 3.

When we talk about "positionless" basketball, obviously i dont want Giannis at the 1 all game. Thats literally taking him out of his game and not giving him the post ups and the back door cuts you want him doing.

But this entire conversation is stupid because, like i said, the Rockets dont even HAVE a "center" on their team!

Do you guys WATCH basketball or just look at the stats?

[tarantism]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

These are just labels. I could put Steph Curry in at the 5 and he would be playing "center" but he still would have "guard" game.

The Rockets have players who play the 5 all game, whether or not they have a true "center" on their roster. P.J. Tucker can play like a "big".

In 2k terms, much like the NBA, the position labels dictate what responsibilities a player has on the court, depending on schemes. So if your primary creator is a "SF" then you design your offense around that.

Basically each position has a set of responsibilities offensively and you are confusing traditional positional responsibility with modern basketball. Not every PG is a rock pounding shot creator, not every center is a lumbering post up guy, etc. That's why the term "positonless basketball" is misleading and should probably be abandoned.

Of course, 2k playbooks are archaic so you'd almost have to put players who handle the ball at 1, catch and shoot guys at 2, slashers at 3, and post up/roll guys at the 4 and 5. The playbooks just don't provide nearly enough play style diversity otherwise. It doesn't reflect modern basketball. 2k playbooks are stuck in the 1990s/2000s.

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[Real2KInsider]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

This is my point. Too many people are trying to explain it with stats and numbers.

Data contextualizes what the eyes see. You would have us believe Giannis is orchestrating the Bucks offense, when it is far from the truth. While he is capable of doing this on occasion, that is demonstrably NOT his primary role.

The Bucks run a 5 out all game. That means for any one play, anyone can be the PG in that play by your definition. Middleton can run a PnR. So can Bledsoe.

I did not define running a PnR as being the PG for a play. That is your cookie cutter take on the data. Nobody is suggesting Marvin Williams was a PG 2% of the time, or that Kyle Korver was a PG 7% of the time.

The players that handle the ball the most are naturally going to have the highest PNR numbers on their team. Most PGs naturally have a possession rate of 30%. Heavily ball-dominant guards like Chris Paul & Steve Nash will be in the 50-60% range. Spotup guys like Derek Fisher or Pat Beverley will be in the 20% range.

P&R ROLL MEN
17% Brook Lopez
10% Marvin Williams
9% Giannis Antetekoumpo
9% Ersan Ilyasova
7% Kyle Korver

If Giannis spends more time OFF the ball in PNRs than he does ON the ball.... it's kinda hard to describe & define him as the primary ball handler without wildly twisting the truth.

LeBron: 23% PNR, 1% Roll)
Luka: 53% PNR, 0% Roll
Giannis: 7% PNR, 9% Roll

One of these is not like the others.

How about this metric? Who gets the most touches? Who brings the ball up the court for the Bucks the most?

Put some work in and tell us why these goal posts matter.

What do "Touches" have to do with being a PG? Bam Adebayo lead the Heat in touches. Nikola Vucevic lead the Magic. Nikola Jokic lead the Nuggets.

Was Hakeem Olajuwon a PG? Was Patrick Ewing? Was Shaq?

What I'm asking is Giannis a Guard, a Wing or a Big? He can play all 3.

"Can he" and "Does he" are two different things.

But this entire conversation is stupid because, like i said, the Rockets dont even HAVE a "center" on their team!

They do have a center . It is impossible to NOT have a center (the label given to the 5-man) in a 5-on-5 basketball game. The only thing that has changed is the range of characteristics & traits that teams look for to fill the position.

Modern PFs do not resemble the PFs of 25 years ago. It is the same for centers. Positions constantly adapt.

Do you guys WATCH basketball or just look at the stats?

Based on your responses, it is questionable whether you watch basketball at anything more than a surface level (and we obviously know you don't look or care about stats at anything greater than an elementary level).

[howardphillips214]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Data contextualizes what the eyes see. You would have us believe Giannis is orchestrating the Bucks offense, when it is far from the truth. While he is capable of doing this on occasion, that is demonstrably NOT his primary role.



I did not define running a PnR as being the PG for a play. That is your cookie cutter take on the data. Nobody is suggesting Marvin Williams was a PG 2% of the time, or that Kyle Korver was a PG 7% of the time.

The players that handle the ball the most are naturally going to have the highest PNR numbers on their team. Most PGs naturally have a possession rate of 30%. Heavily ball-dominant guards like Chris Paul & Steve Nash will be in the 50-60% range. Spotup guys like Derek Fisher or Pat Beverley will be in the 20% range.

P&R ROLL MEN
17% Brook Lopez
10% Marvin Williams
9% Giannis Antetekoumpo
9% Ersan Ilyasova
7% Kyle Korver

If Giannis spends more time OFF the ball in PNRs than he does ON the ball.... it's kinda hard to describe & define him as the primary ball handler without wildly twisting the truth.

LeBron: 23% PNR, 1% Roll)
Luka: 53% PNR, 0% Roll
Giannis: 7% PNR, 9% Roll

One of these is not like the others.




Put some work in and tell us why these goal posts matter.

What do "Touches" have to do with being a PG? Bam Adebayo lead the Heat in touches. Nikola Vucevic lead the Magic. Nikola Jokic lead the Nuggets.

Was Hakeem Olajuwon a PG? Was Patrick Ewing? Was Shaq?



"Can he" and "Does he" are two different things.



They do have a center . It is impossible to NOT have a center (the label given to the 5-man) in a 5-on-5 basketball game. The only thing that has changed is the range of characteristics & traits that teams look for to fill the position.

Modern PFs do not resemble the PFs of 25 years ago. It is the same for centers. Positions constantly adapt.



Based on your responses, it is questionable whether you watch basketball at anything more than a surface level (and we obviously know you don't look or care about stats at anything greater than an elementary level).

Judging from your responses, there is no arguing with you.

I just want the game to move forward. It's ignorance like this that holds it back.

[itsmb8]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

To me this entire debate is pointless... No need to change the position system or anything, just allow us to assign more than one position to a player and, of course, make the OVR equation more balanced for each position. Get rid of "secondary positions" and just give us either A) just assign positions to a player, or B) give us a 0-100 scale to assign to each position.

The current one primary, one secondary position system is just too limited. Like Giannis for example. His current positions are PF/SF, but if need be he can definitely be the PG, SG, or C on the floor. But 2K will never utilize him anywhere else to maximize their roster's potential if Giannis at C would best fit the team.

We can get around this somewhat by constantly monitoring each team throughout the season (in MyLeague), but during each game, 2K will automatically roll out the same 5-man lineups. It just isnt complex and creative enough.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: 2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

Judging from your responses, there is no arguing with you.

I just want the game to move forward. It's ignorance like this that holds it back.

You actually want the game to move backwards and dumb it down. In seven months you haven't diversified your position at all, you are just parroting the same thing ad nausea.