Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

[Thrustie]

Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

Ever been No-Scoped by a Sniper Rifle?

If someone picks up 2K for the first time, they are not going to be doing all that w/ any type of consistency. The question isn't whether it should be repeatable, it's how hard do the developers need to make it; all while providing a satisfying difficulty curve & game experience for the user.

Many a time before I realized I was no good at FPS. Never been No-Scoped 16 of 20 deaths though! I agree with you that greening any of those aforementioned shots is definitely not something you’re going to be seeing a beginner do consistently. If I picked up COD, I probably couldn’t kill a guy with a nuke but if a skilled player could wipe the map with one, players would still rightfully be calling for a nerf. I run into guys who can green 80-90% of their open pull ups every day so I don’t think it’s such an exclusive club that it warrants being left alone.

I don't play 2K competitively anymore because I stopped finding the game strategically stimulating (though I suppose the de-evolution of MyTeam w/ clown cards is what really killed my interest).

The gameplay has always been about finding something to exploit (thus guaranteeing repeatable actions), and has been for 20 years. That doesn't make it much different from the vast majority of video games.

I'm personally more into games where there is actual depth to my decision points. I know people WISH they could get this fix from a basketball game but it's just never going to happen. 2K is designed to be Checkers rather than Chess. Or perhaps more appropriately, Checkers 5.3 after 20 years of adding game modes and UI. The core of the game is what it is.

Perhaps you’re right and I’m expecting too much of this game (especially online) and my dream of balance is nothing but a fairy tale. I know there will always be exploits and cheese but I still feel there’s a way to mitigate them further if there was an appetite to do so.



Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[howardphillips214]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

I'm sure the vast majroity of players here would agree that if there were ANY other cheese other than 3s every year it would be a welcome change.

Hopstep cheese behind a screen in 16.

Launching half court greens in 17.

Stepback cheese in 18.

Lockdown 3s in 19.

Behind the back cheese for 3 in 20.

I mean... Come on man.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

I'm sure the vast majroity of players here would agree that if there were ANY other cheese other than 3s every year it would be a welcome change.

Hopstep cheese behind a screen in 16.

Launching half court greens in 17.

Stepback cheese in 18.

Lockdown 3s in 19.

Behind the back cheese for 3 in 20.

I mean... Come on man.

Yes, it would be, lol.

I want to see some new cheese.

[ILLSmak]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

I'm personally more into games where there is actual depth to my decision points. I know people WISH they could get this fix from a basketball game but it's just never going to happen. 2K is designed to be Checkers rather than Chess. Or perhaps more appropriately, Checkers 5.3 after 20 years of adding game modes and UI. The core of the game is what it is.

nah 2k is chess with a bunch of idiots playing. Its animation based outcome makes it more of like a real time strategy than anything else. That's outside of release window.



So, 2k isn't for the stick skill people even though people love skilling 'greens', finishing off a move with a green is like wooo endorphins... but it's really about depth of strategy.



For instance, people say the cpu can't guard the pick and roll, but the pick and roll is IMPOSSIBLE TO GUARD. haha. There is NO WAY to guard a pick and roll. That's why it's such a staple play, if you make the right decision every time on the pnr, it's unstoppable. That's chess. The problem is just that 2k has dumbed it down. So it's like trying to play chess with people putting other pieces on the board during the game.



Move, countermove, position, each possession is chess. I mean, even while getting pounded with 4 of the worst players who are probably high off something you can buy at the hardware store, you can see the depth of strategy in this game. You know you can bump people right? You can actually use that to your advantage and control where people move just like in real bball. That's chess, again, as is real bball.



It's basically like this, like I said in the other thread, if you wanna win you need a couple people who can hit 80%. I mean if you wanna compete at a high level. Then the rest of your guys can be whatever build as long as they can do something. So, in some ways it's like yknow dps carry or whatever. It sucks that dudes feel themselves so much, but I really think inside scoring is stronk and useful this year. It's people living by the old trash meta and not passing you the ball that messed it up.



-Smak

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

nah 2k is chess with a bunch of idiots playing. Its animation based outcome makes it more of like a real time strategy than anything else. That's outside of release window.

I will respectfully disagree.

1. The vast majority of people are in fact idiots. This is not a problem unique to 2K. It's true in all metas and wakes of life, gamers and non-gamers.

2. Games like Starcraft or League of Legends are actual RTS. 2K does a very poor job of what those games are able to do strategically. It is very much checkers (on the rails, limited options) by comparison.

Move, countermove, position, each possession is chess.

You're describing more a boxing match / fighting game. These are macro-interactions (if someone is into that, why not just play a good fighting game, where matches are far less time-consuming?).

Using Starcraft & League as examples again, the macro is controlling your units/hero during actual
combat & traversal. The decisions leading up to those points of interaction are what provide the strategic depth to the game. Reacting & predicting your opponent's plan is just as important as executing your own.

Chess is also a resource management game - you use & lose options over the course of a game. The only resource 2K has is Stamina, and it's implementation simply pales in comparison to a significant number of games.

[ILLSmak]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

You're describing more a boxing match / fighting game. These are macro-interactions (if someone is into that, why not just play a good fighting game, where matches are far less time-consuming?).

Using Starcraft & League as examples again, the macro is controlling your units/hero during actual
combat & traversal. The decisions leading up to those points of interaction are what provide the strategic depth to the game. Reacting & predicting your opponent's plan is just as important as executing your own.

Interesting chat. Re: resources, I do think that the metaphor for the depth of 2k does fall short in that regard. There isn't a creation of units or resource harvesting, unless you count drawing fouls ha. The rest of the stuff is also true about 2k, imo. I never got into SC. Played cnc for awhile. Played leeg. Don't mind fighters, wish there was a boxing game that was new and good. It's still not basketball.



I mean, you'll agree that basketball is a chess game. Even football (supposed caveman sport) is extremely deep and chess-y in ways that many fans probably don't understand. And I don't really like football.



When things become OP, everything kind of mushes together so it's hard to see depth. 2k needs a lot of work in that regard, but it's still deep. SC is seen as one of the most hardcore competitive games world-wide I think haha, so I don't think anyone is gonna take that stance 2k v SC. But I've taken bball games in general vs league many times.



2k isn't self limiting, it's the players that are limited. Chess vs checkers when used metaphorically usually describes a simplicity and limit on options (as you said), that isn't really true in 2k. There are a bunch of options, but there are some op things that lead to success too often and then exploits, too.


As I've said before, being a big man... fighting for position inside (that is, shuffling your opponent around as the ball is swung, always being ready to help/cut or slip around for a rebound is actually a really intensive thing. 2k kind of puts some hand holding in this, as well as the years where it was just like "I'm gonna set a pick right under the basket then jump and grab the rebound." It's coming along slowly, though.


The kind of comp you get in Ante Up is super cheesy but intense also. I personally don't wanna mess w/ it anymore especially when it DC's you.



Whatever is happening in 2k leeg is entertainment and hype opposed to competition. As I said in another thread, for true surprises you'd probably want to see the best vs players opposed to the best my players, and the route into making it into the 2k league doesn't seem like it's as skill based as self promotion.



True, 2k isn't a rts. But in comparison to a fighting game it is. In comparison to a FPS it is. Those games require reaction and complex strings of buttons, in a fighting game you just get juggled and that's it. Maybe 2/3 interactions each match. That's why I enjoy 8 min team up type games and 12 min vs computer (altho we all know a computer cannot present a real challenge to a human.)



I GUESS you could say resource management is stamina/fouls/hot/cold and your bench. But I don't wanna really go too deep on it, my point was that it's more about executing a complex strategy than stick skills, believe it or not. But if 2k keeps changing their game when people are like IT'S TOO HARD TO MAKE SHOTS, things are gonna be tough. 2k is not trying to cater to a hyper-competitive environment. It's trying to create a virtual world where people can mill around in the park and show off their purple afros and emotes.



But the base of depth is there. It's always been there. I've been playing deez stuffs for 15 years man. 2k just became about release point/having a 3 point rating above x, more than anything else. I'm a big, my long-time friend is a pg. If we had a friend that excelled at release point/rolled a shooter, we could smash many groups of randos in rec and many groups of 3s in park. Without that, it's just like beating your head against the wall, watching open shots miss over and over again.



I could make a bold claim like THE META IS WRONG in 2k. Meaning it's suboptimal. It's relatively easy. That's one thing people usually forget about meta is... generally meta is also accessible. Still, gimme the troops (heh), and I think we can defeat and change the meta.



I'm not afraid of losing, and I enjoy learning about how people play. Just because people all play the same doesn't mean that's all the game has to offer. People are often confused by the way I play because it's so different. On defense, people might be confused in a good way, on offense, people might miss out on an easy basket or get the ball for a wide open shot but not be ready for it because they couldn't fathom that I could hit them back with a lead pass so quickly that lead them into a wide open shot, etc...


and that's a long post.


-Smak

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

Fleshing out Chess/Checkers thoughts:

Checkers is technically also resource management. The pieces are all essentially pawns (the goal being to upgrade them and close out).

In Chess the pieces have different values & roles, not dissimilar from basketball.

A big problem with 2K is that the game is programmed and balanced for "Chess" but it's key modes (MyPlayer & MyTeam) are designed around both teams being all OP Queens.

They try to diversify MyPlayer w/ Archetype/Classes but it's just a bad iteration of what a MOBA does (and significantly more time consuming & expensive to efficiently play). The NBA license is really the main thing holding the game together (yet ironically, also preventing the developers from making any meaningful progress).

[howardphillips214]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

2k be like...

[ILLSmak]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

Fleshing out Chess/Checkers thoughts:

Checkers is technically also resource management. The pieces are all essentially pawns (the goal being to upgrade them and close out).

In Chess the pieces have different values & roles, not dissimilar from basketball.

A big problem with 2K is that the game is programmed and balanced for "Chess" but it's key modes (MyPlayer & MyTeam) are designed around both teams being all OP Queens.

They try to diversify MyPlayer w/ Archetype/Classes but it's just a bad iteration of what a MOBA does (and significantly more time consuming & expensive to efficiently play). The NBA license is really the main thing holding the game together (yet ironically, also preventing the developers from making any meaningful progress).

mostly agree. I mean, I got the *ss whupping of my life in checkers when I was a kid vs my uncle. haha. I didn't even know you could be beaten in checkers in such a way, like that you could be set up and just get jumped over and over. I was just like NOOO as dude did his travel about the board, so yea checkers get a bad rap, but the checkers chess metaphor is generally used to describe depth, and I really feel 2k has a lot of untapped depth. Not untapped by everyone, just untapped in the meta. Like I said, there are some useful situations where some of these things would matter.


Also, I can't speak to my team but balancing myplayer or player lock modes is actually a lot harder IMO, because you can always cut or drag them around then get open. I played vs Bol Bol... we had a little battle ( was fun haha), but like first possession he was face guarding me at the half court line as soon as I came across. I just stood there while my team scored.



But yea my point was mainly 2k is a slow game masquerading as a fast game, and, we agree, the slow parts are the most important, it's just too bad there are other things. I've not played seriously... like pro am serious with people who are legit 3 point shooters, though, in a few years. I imagine I could get Ws. I got plenty of Ws in L*ve with decent teammates. It's not that you have to run around screens or whatever, but you NEED people who can make shots at an insanely high percentage. You need to be on the side that is smirking as dude greens over and over again, not on the one that is getting rained on.



Edit: and I super doubt many of us would be playing if we didn't love bball. haha. Some, or at lot of us, on OS have 'irreconcilable differences' with some of 2ks balancing, but we still love bball and it's fun to get online and play bball with a bunch of people IMO. I've never had as much fun in any other multiplayer video game, not even close.




-Smak

[Dione2014]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

This is because it's much easier to get into a rhythm in a gym shooting with no D. Rondo can even hit 70 out of 100 wide open shots on the floor in rhythm with no defender.

Here's a video of a horse game between Rondo and Durant.
Durant barely wins here.

https://youtu.be/eVQIjJbY2m0

NBA defenses plan endlessly and scheme through the nose for star players, so believe... Stars are going to see all sorts of different and uncomfortable looks from the defense. Making it much harder to get into rhythm.

If Steph Curry played in an empty gym, he'd shoot 90%.

Additionally:
The score of this season's All-Star game was 157-155.
Last year was 178-164.

Funny how basketball statistics change once every player on the court is an All-Star. Don't look at basketball games where 3/5ths of the players on the court are role players as a barometer for games where everyone is a 90+.



Show us the tape. A box score provides only surface level information and isn't evidence of evenly matched skill.

Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Operation Sports mobile app

[JHodges57]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

The people who buy the game year in and year out with the game having the same issues year in and year out have no one to blame but themselves for continuing to support this company. Competition in the marketplace isn't needed. What is needed is people stop supporting this company and just stick with the version they like. Considering how few changes are made to the game from one year to the next, there is no need to keep buying the lastest version so the excuse that it's the only basketball game out there really doesn't wash. You have the game, stick with that version.

"You can't find park players in older versions". Well, people keep raising cain about people in the park but then they complain when they can't find other players. If things are that bad, why would you want to find other players?

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

So when we putting some action behind all this typing and running some 5v5 OS Pro Am?

What system is everyone on?

[Gosens6]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

So when we putting some action behind all this typing and running some 5v5 OS Pro Am?

What system is everyone on?

I'm definitely down for that. I'm on PS4

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

I'm definitely down for that. I'm on PS4

On XBO.

Wish we could run.

[TheFgGoatLikesHawks]

Re: Twitter and YouTube killed 2K basketball

https://twitter.com/SplashEdition/status/1316497481346297859

Every year. Same 'meta'. A buncha Steph Curry's on steroids. Spam dribbles and hide behind spam screens. Or pass to a Cone in the corner who'll green with a hand in face. Hope next gen fixes all this but doubt it.

How to fix it --

- Scrap handles for days
- Scrap unpluckable
- Scrap badge stacking beyond 2 badges (Dimer + Corner Specialist + Catch & Shoot wouldn't work with this).
- Nerf Steph Curry type builds
- Mike Wang stops listening to the crybabies on twitter who can't win any other way. He can say whatever he wants in the "sim" blog posts. He patches the game to undercut it every year.

Literally the same repetitive bs "comp" gameplay every single year smh