Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

[justlaze]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

What you mean by 1 silver seed? It happens in every seed, but in the unrestricted seeds you can feel it the most. I can win with an all gold squad for 50k vs a good player with elite cards. I just need to drive with Wall or Westbrook through 3 defenders and get the foul or the bucket or both. Or pass the ball to Gasol in the post, pump fake and get the same result. Kids ger rewarded for doing the same moves over and over. And the scripted momentum decides who wins.

this is the reason why I'm done with RTTP and MyTeam partwise for now. I've listed my entire amethyst squad because I'm done with this cheese. you neither need insane cards nor any playbook to win, so why bother sniping, flipping cards, building up a team and learning plays???
Nevertheless, the things that bothered me started to stack from time to time and I just want to sum up what makes RTTP for me personally unenjoyable.

I) Bad plays get rewarded / drive or turbo to win

As already mentioned by a lot of you, this is the main reason why RTTP is a joke. There is absolutely no need for setting up plays if you have higher chances to score when driving to the basket. I basically just need DeAndre to give a screen and let Russel drive.

II) Momentum Swing

I am one of the believers of momentum swing even if there are discussions. I noticed it a lot of times when I was having a close game and I pulled away for lets say 10+. Then suddenly Curry drops the ball for no reason and turns it over, opponent is able to make impossible, contested shots while I won't hit wide open 3s with Pierce?! Things like that happen A LOT OF TIMES and I don't believe that this is just an imagination, if a lot of you recognize it aswell!

III) 0-0 (aaaaand it's gone)

I thought this got fixed but nope it still occurs from time to time
in higher seeds you can not afford these timeout losses. this is just terrifying.

IV) Playbook Bug

Another annoying thing is the playbook bug. You start the game and want to set up plays and then realize that this is some random playbook you've never seen.

V) Getting paired with players in higher seeds

This is obviously great for guys in Seed 1 or 2, but just a slap in the face for average players like me. Why do I get paired with people having Reward Mullin or Ewing? I don't care if I get beneficial sliders I just want to face people who are on my level.

Guess I'm just gonna hop into PlayNow and see if it's more enjoyable. Some of you said it's better playwise so I'm going to give it a try.


p.s. sorry in case of wrong spelling/grammar it's not my mother tongue

[QNo]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Just 3 examples. RTTP in a nutshell:

http://youtu.be/4m3Bu8PSWiE

http://youtu.be/JfGLeND-qAY

http://youtu.be/dSYIsNJ5oOM

Clip 1: You don't take care of the ball twice, dribbling it right in front of John Wall, a great defender. You got lucky that it wasn't a turnover the first time. The right thing to do is to use your body to protect the ball from the defender, just like it is in real life.

Then he isolates with Wall, who just build up some momentum by getting a tipped ball and then a steal, against Harden, not a great defender. The animation is cheesy but happens all the time in RTTP, bad sliders.

Clip 2: He's not gonna make that shot a large percentage of the time. **** happens.

Clip 3. Again, lucky shot, bad sliders.


All of these will go in a certain percentage of the time. Cherrypicking the times they do and then using that to support the argument that there is comeback code is not a good way of making an argument at all.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

But 2k not being sim and 2k being scripted for certain players to win/comeback are two wholly separate claims. One is about programming not being great, the other about programming intentionally rigging the game for some reason.

I used to be an elite professional poker player. I made lots of money from people because they don't understand randomness. How could they, our brain developed in a very different way. It takes years of training to overcome some of these instincts. I recommend Nassim Nicholas Taleb - Fools of Randomness for an introduction as to how all of us commonly attribute things to our own abilities that are but a product of randomness.

Basketball and thus 2k is a game of very high variance. There is a reason playoff series are best of 7, not best of one. Variance trumps slight differences in skill in the short term (one or several games). But in the long-term, skill trumps variance.

Think about the 2013 finals. If Ray Allen doesn't make the shot in game 6, the series is over and the Spurs take the title. That shot will miss more than half the time, statistically. But this time it went in, enabling the Heat to go on to a game 7 that they would eventually win. Even championships get decided on the narrowest of edges.

The poker analogy I always give is that, on a given night, an amateur has like a 45-55 chance to come out on top of the best player of the world. That's how much random card distribution matters. But if they play every night for a year, the chances that the pro will be ahead are way above 99%. Now, I don't know what these probabiities in 2k are. So let us turn to an easier and simplified example instead.

Imagine if you play a good possession and get an open corner 3 with a good shooter. Let's stipulate that that 3 has a 40% probability of going on, which is a reasonable number. What are the odds that you miss two of these in a row?

The answer is 36%. Most people would guess that the probability should be much lower. For comparison, the probability that you make two such 3s in a row is only 16%. 48% of the time you're going to make one and miss one.

So, 36% of the time you will miss two open 3s in a row, an event that will lead many to cry out that the game is rigged. Now, let's say that your opponent will take a bad contested 3 in between your two shots and it goes in. Let us stipulate that that 3 goes in 25% of the time. Now, in the long run, the guy taking 40% shots will win, but it might just be that this is the one time where you miss both of your shots while your opponent makes his. The probability of this chain of events (you miss a good shot, he makes a bad shot, you miss another good shot) is 9%. Let us call this sequence of events WOAT.

9%! This is exactly the kind of thing that people will make angry forum posts and videos about, yet it is not terribly uncommon. We will probably have events like this (we miss a good shot, they make a bad one, we miss another good shot) many time in any given game against a bad opponent. If we have 10 such chains of events in a single game, chances are that the 9% scenario we described will happen once a game.

It might even happen more often in reality. Maybe we are playing very meticulously and get 40FGA in a given game, all of which are decent to good shots. Our opponent is a chucker, 20 of his 40 FGA are bad. In such an event, there will be an average of 2 WOAT sequences a game. The way our brain tends to remember bad instances like this and forget the good, 'normal', ones, this can quickly condition one to believe in comeback code, etc.

The explanation that one game mode (MT) has comeback logic while another (PNO) doesn't is especially troublesome. Why should 2k have such code for one mode and not another? The more straightforward explanation is that the differences between the 2 modes is what causes this change in perception (many superstars and thus making more tough shots, thus decreasing the edge 'solid' play has over 'chucking'/more badges/lower difficulty setting).

your breakdown was good and those percentages look right. but you are speaking of those numbers on a single game basis? so you believe they have great chance on repeating themselves game after game after game? the notion of something being scripted does not pertain to variance or randomness. its the antithesis of it. these events are highly predictable. whether you believe in comebacking or not....how do you explain how we are able to predict what will happen and when? that has nothing to do with remembering bad moments more than remember good. Like you said, the Ray Allen shot will miss more times then not. That shot is made at least twice EVERY GAME in RTTP if the conditions are as we speak of. there is nothing random about it.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Clip 1: You don't take care of the ball twice, dribbling it right in front of John Wall, a great defender. You got lucky that it wasn't a turnover the first time. The right thing to do is to use your body to protect the ball from the defender, just like it is in real life.

Then he isolates with Wall, who just build up some momentum by getting a tipped ball and then a steal, against Harden, not a great defender. The animation is cheesy but happens all the time in RTTP, bad sliders.

Clip 2: He's not gonna make that shot a large percentage of the time. **** happens.

Clip 3. Again, lucky shot, bad sliders.


All of these will go in a certain percentage of the time. Cherrypicking the times they do and then using that to support the argument that there is comeback code is not a good way of making an argument at all.

you are only looking at his clips and making a judgement on a one game basis. the things you said were luck, happens at least twice if you have the lead EVERY SINGLE GAME. thats not luck.

[cardinalbird5]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

But 2k not being sim and 2k being scripted for certain players to win/comeback are two wholly separate claims. One is about programming not being great, the other about programming intentionally rigging the game for some reason.



I used to be an elite professional poker player. I made lots of money from people because they don't understand randomness. How could they, our brain developed in a very different way. It takes years of training to overcome some of these instincts. I recommend Nassim Nicholas Taleb - Fools of Randomness for an introduction as to how all of us commonly attribute things to our own abilities that are but a product of randomness.



Basketball and thus 2k is a game of very high variance. There is a reason playoff series are best of 7, not best of one. Variance trumps slight differences in skill in the short term (one or several games). But in the long-term, skill trumps variance.



Think about the 2013 finals. If Ray Allen doesn't make the shot in game 6, the series is over and the Spurs take the title. That shot will miss more than half the time, statistically. But this time it went in, enabling the Heat to go on to a game 7 that they would eventually win. Even championships get decided on the narrowest of edges.



The poker analogy I always give is that, on a given night, an amateur has like a 45-55 chance to come out on top of the best player of the world. That's how much random card distribution matters. But if they play every night for a year, the chances that the pro will be ahead are way above 99%. Now, I don't know what these probabiities in 2k are. So let us turn to an easier and simplified example instead.



Imagine if you play a good possession and get an open corner 3 with a good shooter. Let's stipulate that that 3 has a 40% probability of going on, which is a reasonable number. What are the odds that you miss two of these in a row?



The answer is 36%. Most people would guess that the probability should be much lower. For comparison, the probability that you make two such 3s in a row is only 16%. 48% of the time you're going to make one and miss one.



So, 36% of the time you will miss two open 3s in a row, an event that will lead many to cry out that the game is rigged. Now, let's say that your opponent will take a bad contested 3 in between your two shots and it goes in. Let us stipulate that that 3 goes in 25% of the time. Now, in the long run, the guy taking 40% shots will win, but it might just be that this is the one time where you miss both of your shots while your opponent makes his. The probability of this chain of events (you miss a good shot, he makes a bad shot, you miss another good shot) is 9%. Let us call this sequence of events WOAT.



9%! This is exactly the kind of thing that people will make angry forum posts and videos about, yet it is not terribly uncommon. We will probably have events like this (we miss a good shot, they make a bad one, we miss another good shot) many time in any given game against a bad opponent. If we have 10 such chains of events in a single game, chances are that the 9% scenario we described will happen once a game.



It might even happen more often in reality. Maybe we are playing very meticulously and get 40FGA in a given game, all of which are decent to good shots. Our opponent is a chucker, 20 of his 40 FGA are bad. In such an event, there will be an average of 2 WOAT sequences a game. The way our brain tends to remember bad instances like this and forget the good, 'normal', ones, this can quickly condition one to believe in comeback code, etc.



The explanation that one game mode (MT) has comeback logic while another (PNO) doesn't is especially troublesome. Why should 2k have such code for one mode and not another? The more straightforward explanation is that the differences between the 2 modes is what causes this change in perception (many superstars and thus making more tough shots, thus decreasing the edge 'solid' play has over 'chucking'/more badges/lower difficulty setting).

Post of the year....this is how it is for every sports games and we all tend to overreact when we make the right play and do not get rewarded instantly all the time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

They already do that, exhibited by the lowered difficulty settings. So their MT specific comeback code isn't good enough to achieve what they want to achieve by itself, they also have to (or, coincidentally do) lower the difficulty settings on top of that? Not very believable.

a few years ago I played quick games against my son or other friends/relatives who had no idea how to play. this was on low difficulty settings. they would blow me out and beat me more times than I could win. and I had been playing the game for years. thats what low difficulty does. it does not keep the game close, as evidenced of me getting blown out by people who didnt know how to play simply because they were making every 3pt shot. back there people were really complaining and thats where a lot of the cheeser term originated in reference to this game. its very hard to balance a game but I believe 2k had to do something so cheesers couldnt run wild but so skilled players just cant totally dominate the game either.

Post of the year....this is how it is for every sports games and we all tend to overreact when we make the right play and do not get rewarded instantly all the time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

again, you are not reading what has been said in the thread...just taking one lil part here and there. what I am talking about is the 9% shots QNo is speaking of going in 3x per game every game. so the chance of those 9% shots occurring from game to game is 85-90% of the time, lol.

[QNo]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

a few years ago I played quick games against my son or other friends/relatives who had no idea how to play. this was on low difficulty settings. they would blow me out and beat me more times than I could win. and I had been playing the game for years. thats what low difficulty does. it does not keep the game close, as evidenced of me getting blown out by people who didnt know how to play simply because they were making every 3pt shot. back there people were really complaining and thats where a lot of the cheeser term originated in reference to this game. its very hard to balance a game but I believe 2k had to do something so cheesers couldnt run wild but so skilled players just cant totally dominate the game either.

I always see you complain about Gauntlet, so that's the mode where people make all those 3s, I assume? Well, Gauntlet is on a very low difficulty setting and it's a game mode where 2s have a much higher EV than 1s. So chucking 3s is decent strategy. That's part of why I never play this mode, I find it unbearable.

you are only looking at his clips and making a judgement on a one game basis. the things you said were luck, happens at least twice if you have the lead EVERY SINGLE GAME. thats not luck.

Well, he only provided us with clips that are single instances, so your argument works as well against those clips as it does work against my responses to them. All of you console players can record videos so easily. Show us some actual evidence and post ridiculous runs! It shouldn't be very hard.

[QNo]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

your breakdown was good and those percentages look right. but you are speaking of those numbers on a single game basis? so you believe they have great chance on repeating themselves game after game after game? the notion of something being scripted does not pertain to variance or randomness. its the antithesis of it. these events are highly predictable. whether you believe in comebacking or not....how do you explain how we are able to predict what will happen and when? that has nothing to do with remembering bad moments more than remember good. Like you said, the Ray Allen shot will miss more times then not. That shot is made at least twice EVERY GAME in RTTP if the conditions are as we speak of. there is nothing random about it.

I do not believe that anybody is able to predict anything. People just tend to make assumptions. Record a gameplay with live commentary and make your predictions. They won't be accurate more often than not. Also, there is momentum in the game, so at certain points some things are more likely to go in than at other points. But that's very different from comeback code.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

I do not believe that anybody is able to predict anything. People just tend to make assumptions. Record a gameplay with live commentary and make your predictions. They won't be accurate more often than not. Also, there is momentum in the game, so at certain points some things are more likely to go in than at other points. But that's very different from comeback code.

I coach rec league for 11-13 year olds. When one team gets up by 20, we turn scoreboard off. When/if score gets back close, scoreboard comes back on. This is done for the same reason there is COMEBACKING in these games, to avoid discouragement of players. Yes there is momentum, and this is understandable and explainable because of different personality badges. There is also comebacking...even though the two are different.

Panda says that sometimes players comeback by playing better or the person winning starts playing dumb. This is more along the lines of momentum. I have no problem with momentum or comebacking. My issue is, when you go up 10-15 on a person playing smart, they go into rage mode before they quit and just start playing out of control. Momentum is aided by ball movement and getting others involved. These guys throw all strategy out the window and start turboing around with one guy jacking up 30 footers. They get rewarded for this nonsense 25-30% of the time. Doesnt seem like a large number, but it is considering this never happens IRL.

To be clear, I dont have an issue with momentum or comebacking....its the way it is artificially done. You made some good points but this is something we will never agree on. I dont do any recording, seems like too much of a hassle from what I read on to stream a whole game. Gotta link up with Twitch and all that. I spend enough time messing with the game. Maybe I will soon, but I guarantee you I will be right more than I am wrong. I cant predict a lot of specifics....like how the turnover will happen but I can tell you most of the time when it will. I cant tell you which shot out of 3 contested 30 footers will happen but I can guarantee you 1 of those 3 will go in.

Chillipalmer said he welcomes anyone to play him and he will stream it. Its probably best to have someone cooperative so you can recreate a blowout scenario....then one player can start shooting 40 footers. We would need 3 or 4 games played though so you can see that the pattern follows suit each and every game when the scenario is the same.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

I always see you complain about Gauntlet, so that's the mode where people make all those 3s, I assume? Well, Gauntlet is on a very low difficulty setting and it's a game mode where 2s have a much higher EV than 1s. So chucking 3s is decent strategy. That's part of why I never play this mode, I find it unbearable.



Well, he only provided us with clips that are single instances, so your argument works as well against those clips as it does work against my responses to them. All of you console players can record videos so easily. Show us some actual evidence and post ridiculous runs! It shouldn't be very hard.

Gauntlet I can easily predict. Also, even though its ridiculous in Gauntlet, I chimed in to this thread because I have experienced it this year in RTTP. Here is the thing that kills me though...when you guys say its on low difficulty shouldnt that go TWO WAYS? if there is low difficulty and no comebacking then games would be very simple and there would be a lot more blowouts. again, if a game is on low difficulty, then explain how a guy with below 70 3pt rating can hit 5 shots in a row while one with 90 can miss 5 in a row. an experienced player that gets good releases? we should be trading 3's at the least. low difficulty is low difficulty. I dont see how it isnt without another factor.

[ChiliPalmer]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Clip 1: You don't take care of the ball twice, dribbling it right in front of John Wall, a great defender. You got lucky that it wasn't a turnover the first time. The right thing to do is to use your body to protect the ball from the defender, just like it is in real life.

Then he isolates with Wall, who just build up some momentum by getting a tipped ball and then a steal, against Harden, not a great defender. The animation is cheesy but happens all the time in RTTP, bad sliders.

Clip 2: He's not gonna make that shot a large percentage of the time. **** happens.

Clip 3. Again, lucky shot, bad sliders.


All of these will go in a certain percentage of the time. Cherrypicking the times they do and then using that to support the argument that there is comeback code is not a good way of making an argument at all.

Man, you didnt get the concept of an example it seems.
You could always say "it happens" or "that is a rare exception". Thats flat out ignorant. I was giving 3 random examples of stuff that happens all the time. I could upload examples of heavy momentum swings all day. It happens for my opponent and it happens for me. Back and forth. So what you and your panda friend are saying is irrelevant cause im complaining it happens for BOTH sides. as i said, i dont care about winning any more, i beat RTTP multiple times. I just want to have a fun game. So dont even try to argue "you salty" or "play better" phrases. (and no, the best ball handler in the league wont lose the ball twice in one posession without heavy pressure. Ball strips got toned down a bit with the last patch, so that wont happen all the time now but in those heavy momentum swings its still there).

The reason why there is another comeback logic in RTTP more than in PNO could be to not discouraged new MT players from the beginning.

And yes, Gauntlet is on another difficulty, so RTTP is a better example.

I offered you guys to play a friendly vs me and i will record and post the game here (even if friendlies are on another difficulty its still there).
also, if any1 of you have a link to a RTTP game without these things please leave the link here.

@Cardinalbird: i know your channel and that youve played PNO too. We have a similar play style too. My theory is patient offense does get rewarded a lot more in PNO. Would you say there is a difference if you would play the same cheesy user in both modes? Would you say there is a difference if you play vs a really unskilled opponent that does the same move over and over (like just turbo through traffic)?

[QNo]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

Give us proof, then! You don't even bother making arguments anymore, all you say is 'it's in the game!!!!!!! **** 2k!!!!!!!!!!!' Your way of making an argument is analogous to one that some very religious people use - they 'KNOW' that there is a God, and anybody who doesn't believe it is an ignorant person who harms the good of humankind by denying this. No substantive argument whatsoever.

Please upload a whole quarter or two where the comeback code is visible. Single examples can by their very nature not count as proof.

I'll happily play anybody on PC. I much prefer the HoF challenge over regular friendlies though. I don't have a console.

The reason why all-gold teams seem cheesier/like they have an equalizer is because they get favourable sliders since they're in seed 4, a problem that has been in the game last year, too.

The reason why this happens for both sides is that both sides profit from lower difficulty setting and better players. Of course patient offense gets rewarded more in PNO. For one, the difficulty setting is higher. Also, PNO teams have strengths and weakness and do not consist of 13 man lineups in which every single guy can take over the game. These are things you would expect having never played either mode, given the premises of difficulty settings and team composition.

[Hustle Westbrook]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

The game is so pathetic with the fake comebacks in the 3rd quarter. I don't know how many times I've watched my opponent go on runs in the 3rd quarter. Every single damn game, my team will go cold until my opponent comes back and ties the game up, which is when I'm able to start scoring again. It is literally the most annoying **** ever.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

The game is so pathetic with the fake comebacks in the 3rd quarter. I don't know how many times I've watched my opponent go on runs in the 3rd quarter. Every single damn game, my team will go cold until my opponent comes back and ties the game up, which is when I'm able to start scoring again. It is literally the most annoying **** ever.

that's what happened to me quite a few times. as Qno says, skill overrides variance. It does in most instances in RTTP but sometimes its too close for comfort and it shouldnt be. If you go into rage mode when these comebacks take place, you can easily lose your cool and lose the game because you literally cant believe what is happening. the people that know its real....they dread going into the 4th quarter with a lead.

[2kNerd]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

this is the reason why I'm done with RTTP and MyTeam partwise for now. I've listed my entire amethyst squad because I'm done with this cheese. you neither need insane cards nor any playbook to win, so why bother sniping, flipping cards, building up a team and learning plays???
Nevertheless, the things that bothered me started to stack from time to time and I just want to sum up what makes RTTP for me personally unenjoyable.

I) Bad plays get rewarded / drive or turbo to win

As already mentioned by a lot of you, this is the main reason why RTTP is a joke. There is absolutely no need for setting up plays if you have higher chances to score when driving to the basket. I basically just need DeAndre to give a screen and let Russel drive.

II) Momentum Swing

I am one of the believers of momentum swing even if there are discussions. I noticed it a lot of times when I was having a close game and I pulled away for lets say 10+. Then suddenly Curry drops the ball for no reason and turns it over, opponent is able to make impossible, contested shots while I won't hit wide open 3s with Pierce?! Things like that happen A LOT OF TIMES and I don't believe that this is just an imagination, if a lot of you recognize it aswell!

III) 0-0 (aaaaand it's gone)

I thought this got fixed but nope it still occurs from time to time
in higher seeds you can not afford these timeout losses. this is just terrifying.

IV) Playbook Bug

Another annoying thing is the playbook bug. You start the game and want to set up plays and then realize that this is some random playbook you've never seen.

V) Getting paired with players in higher seeds

This is obviously great for guys in Seed 1 or 2, but just a slap in the face for average players like me. Why do I get paired with people having Reward Mullin or Ewing? I don't care if I get beneficial sliders I just want to face people who are on my level.

Guess I'm just gonna hop into PlayNow and see if it's more enjoyable. Some of you said it's better playwise so I'm going to give it a try.


p.s. sorry in case of wrong spelling/grammar it's not my mother tongue

Great post...all the same are issues for me.

Especially the first one...and especially of late.

Here is how to WIN games in RTTP....

1) Stack your lineup with athletic guys who can drive, dunk, and finish.

2) Turbo around all game with these guys.

3) Barrel to the paint and make 2/3 of your shots...get fouled on the shots you don't make.

4) Take advantage of the BROKEN transition defense and use fast break cheese when possible.

Transition D has been talked about a lot...but it's even more BROKEN than anyone wants to admit. It's MUCH more than just big men taking their time to get back on defense.

The AI of defensive players in transition is horrible. Like NBA Live 95 horrible...

It's why every cheeser out there knows they can TURBO down the court...and make one or two passes...and get a dunk or layup...or a foul.

It's because the transition defense AI is sooooo predictable and downright silly and stupid most of the time.

Makes it a paradise for cheeser idiots who just turbo down the court and make the same pass EVERY single time....