Jeremy Lin

[Colts18]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I am just saying that there are established PG's that have been doing work for years and all he has to do is have 11 games to reach the rating he got? Seriously sit down and think about how backwards that is. 11 games and he is rated that high? What happened to letting things play out before anointing a player? No, we don't do that.

I think 2K Insider jumped the gun with it as well as a lot of roster editors.

[slimm44]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I am just saying that there are established PG's that have been doing work for years and all he has to do is have 11 games to reach the rating he got? Seriously sit down and think about how backwards that is. 11 games and he is rated that high? What happened to letting things play out before anointing a player? No, we don't do that.

I think 2K Insider jumped the gun with it as well as a lot of roster editors.

I agree. He has only played against one team with good (although Miami's is elite) perimeter defense, which is why I said in a post earlier, wait until he plays Miami, Boston, Chicago, etc. It's not that Lin is not playing very well, it's that we haven't seen what he'll do against great perimeter defenders or great perimeter defensive teams. Last night showed he has a lot of room to grow as he was absolutely shook. He was so intimidated he picked up his dribble at times.

Mathematically, even including the game last night, his objective ratings (passing, shooting locations, etc) should still be close to the same. Hopefully, however, it helps people see why there was so much heat for the people talking about elite subjective ratings (offensive awareness, consistency, quickness, etc.) ratings. He wasn't even able to run the PNR last night.

In 11 games, he's had 3 stinkers, against the Hornets, T-Wolves, and Heat.

At NO - 26Pts, 4 Ast, 9 TO. Good scoing night, but his AST to TO Ratio was 1:2. That's a horrible game for a PNR PG.
Vs MIN - 33%FG, 8 Ast, 6 TO. Poor shooting night, 20 Pts on 24FGA, Ast to TO ratio of 1.25:1. Again, horrible for a PNR PG.
At MIA - 1-11FG, 8pts, 3ast, 8 TO. Ast to TO ratio of 1:2.6.

I'm not bashing the kid, but I am pointing out the ugly games he's played (25% of the games he's started) to back up my statement of his subjective ratings needing to be lower than what some posters (and the 2kInsider) think they should be. He's had some very good (and highly exciting) games, but he's also had some very ugly games. To make him play realistically, you have to take both sides into account.

[bedwardsroy19]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I'm not bashing the kid, but I am pointing out the ugly games he's played (25% of the games he's started) to back up my statement of his subjective ratings needing to be lower than what some posters (and the 2kInsider) think they should be. He's had some very good (and highly exciting) games, but he's also had some very ugly games. To make him play realistically, you have to take both sides into account.

In my particular case, I update rosters every week (or every two) in an effort to create more of a "living roster".

So I raise the subjective ratings in an effort to best mirror whats going on in real life. To me in season attributes should change every few weeks, especially if you are trying to mirror whats going on.

You can make him play realistically with a high overall, or a low one. I normally tend on the side of low, but based on his performance he at least needs to be at a overall level similar to Ricky Rubio.

I think that's a decent place to have him right now. So although I will never have him overrated in any of his stat affecting attributes, I have no problem raising his subjective attributes.

Would you agree he and Rubio should be on a similar level attribute-wise? Not saying we disagree, just curious where you put him based on ratings compared to other young point guards. Personally I feel Rubio is just a bit more flash than substance, and it seems a lot of us on here feel the same about Lin.

[MrPolo7]

Re: Jeremy Lin

In my particular case, I update rosters every week (or every two) in an effort to create more of a "living roster".

So I raise the subjective ratings in an effort to best mirror whats going on in real life. To me in season attributes should change every few weeks, especially if you are trying to mirror whats going on.

You can make him play realistically with a high overall, or a low one. I normally tend on the side of low, but based on his performance he at least needs to be at a overall level similar to Ricky Rubio.

I think that's a decent place to have him right now. So although I will never have him overrated in any of his stat affecting attributes, I have no problem raising his subjective attributes.

Would you agree he and Rubio should be on a similar level attribute-wise? Not saying we disagree, just curious where you put him based on ratings compared to other young point guards. Personally I feel Rubio is just a bit more flash than substance, and it seems a lot of us on here feel the same about Lin.

Bedward what page is your latest ratings for Lin on, and what would you say is a good rating for his ball security?

[bedwardsroy19]

Re: Jeremy Lin

Bedward what page is your latest ratings for Lin on, and what would you say is a good rating for his ball security?

Page 35, post 345.

I have his ball security at 74.

I think its extremely important to remember a lot of Lin's turnovers are not "ball security" related turnovers.

I personally think Lin turns the ball over way too much, but people keep relating that to ball security in the game which might not be the actual case. In the game that relates to how they control their dribble (and obviously affects turnovers in the sim engine), but watching Lin again last night a lot of the turnovers came from other factors (offensive fouls, etc...).

[BezO]

Re: Jeremy Lin

Lin will obviously need updates as the season goes along, but you can't limit his ratings because of the small sample size. He's done work 9/10 out of 11 starts. You have to reflect that in the ratings. As long as he's turnover prone, I don't see the problem with high individual ratings in other areas.

I want overall ratings in all sports games eliminated. Better overall is relative. Overall ratings tell you nothing.

I think its extremely important to remember a lot of Lin's turnovers are not "ball security" related turnovers.

I personally think Lin turns the ball over way too much, but people keep relating that to ball security in the game which might not be the actual case. In the game that relates to how they control their dribble (and obviously affects turnovers in the sim engine), but watching Lin again last night a lot of the turnovers came from other factors (offensive fouls, etc...).

Agreed. Though he got stripped I believe twice last night, more of his turnovers are due to indecision.

[slimm44]

Re: Jeremy Lin

Page 35, post 345.

I have his ball security at 74.

I think its extremely important to remember a lot of Lin's turnovers are not "ball security" related turnovers.

I personally think Lin turns the ball over way too much, but people keep relating that to ball security in the game which might not be the actual case. In the game that relates to how they control their dribble (and obviously affects turnovers in the sim engine), but watching Lin again last night a lot of the turnovers came from other factors (offensive fouls, etc...).

I agree and hope they figure out a way to change this next year. The only attributes that affect turnovers in game are Awareness, Ball Security, and passing, but only Ball Security affects TO's in the sim-engine. They need to broaden this to accomodate what occurs in real life.

I'll look at the ratings I gave Rubio and post them later, but I'm assuming I have him pretty close to Lin in the subjective ratings.

[slimm44]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I was looking at Lin's abilities and noticed that most of them were poor. I raised some of his dribble and shot abilities to either average or good and his overall rating went from a 68 to a 72. I wasn't expecting a 4 point increase in his overall, but he played like crap otherwise.

Here are my ratings for Rubio:

Overall 73
Inside 68
Close 57
Medium 74
3PT 80
FT 80
SIT 75
Of Hand Dribbling 90
Ball Security 85
Pass 90
On Ball D 70
Offensive Awareness 75
Defensive Awareness 65
Offensive Clutch 65
Defensive Clutch 55
Consistency 75
Speed 85
Quickness 85
Strength 25
Potential 75

Shot Tendency 35
Inside Shot 32
Close Shot 34
Mid Range 55
3PT 28
Touches 19

[Colts18]

Re: Jeremy Lin

In my particular case, I update rosters every week (or every two) in an effort to create more of a "living roster".

I understand that but I think editing tendencies and playing time would serve the proper purpose instead of editing attributes. Attributes really shouldn't be changing that drastically for a player over the span of 14 days. Skills aren't increasing or decreasing really, roles are.

I think we all are losing focus of that here. So when I read people saying that a 76 is too low for someone that hasn't even played 1000 NBA minutes is really frustrating considering there are players that have a deeper portfolio that have been consistent for years who are rated lower than this dude. What message are we really trying to send?

And the biggest issue I have here is the offensive awareness argument. Some of you seem to think he should be rated 80+. No, he shouldn't. He is a smart YOUNG/INEXPERIENCED player. Experience should weigh heavily when handing out awareness ratings. He is smart yes, but he hasn't played 1000 mins (yes repeating myself here), so I don't even understand how anyone can justify an offensive awareness of 80+. I just can't.

[bedwardsroy19]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I understand that but I think editing tendencies and playing time would serve the proper purpose instead of editing attributes. Attributes really shouldn't be changing that drastically for a player over the span of 14 days. Skills aren't increasing or decreasing really, roles are.


I think we all are losing focus of that here. So when I read people saying that a 76 is too low for someone that hasn't even played 1000 NBA minutes is really frustrating considering there are players that have a deeper portfolio that have been consistent for years who are rated lower than this dude. What message are we really trying to send?

And the biggest issue I have here is the offensive awareness argument. Some of you seem to think he should be rated 80+. No, he shouldn't. He is a smart YOUNG/INEXPERIENCED player. Experience should weigh heavily when handing out awareness ratings. He is smart yes, but he hasn't played 1000 mins (yes repeating myself here), so I don't even understand how anyone can justify an offensive awareness of 80+. I just can't.

Bold point one:

The point is that his skills were not properly rated in the first place. There are people on here that think he should be in the 80's and that is absolutely ridiculous. Honestly at my rating of a 76, there is no attribute I have for him that I could possibly place any higher based on his skills alone. His tendencies that I had edited actually were about what they should be surprisingly, because his play style didn't change all that much since becoming the starter. It was just obvious that he was improperly rated, and I am okay with fixing that if I feel a mistake was made.

Bold point two:

I understand your argument, but it's a video game not real life. Offensive awareness plays a role in the sim engine in regards to assists. I've also found improved gameplay with slightly boosted awareness.

That's how I can justify an awareness of 80+. You can't really make statements like that without weighing all the factors. The only thing that matters in a players rating is whether or not they play like themselves and produce accurate statistics. Many editors have different ways about finding that medium. You could scale the entire league to make nobody have a rating higher than 75 and I would be willing to bet you could still produce the same results as a roster using ratings in the 90's.

As long as theirs a method to the madness, you could make a case for any edit. I feel you have to look at other players in the roster in comparison to have the best idea of whether or not a player is over or underrated.

Hopefully that all made sense, I ramble sometimes

[hear me now]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I agree. He has only played against one team with good (although Miami's is elite) perimeter defense, which is why I said in a post earlier, wait until he plays Miami, Boston, Chicago, etc. It's not that Lin is not playing very well, it's that we haven't seen what he'll do against great perimeter defenders or great perimeter defensive teams. Last night showed he has a lot of room to grow as he was absolutely shook. He was so intimidated he picked up his dribble at times.

Mathematically, even including the game last night, his objective ratings (passing, shooting locations, etc) should still be close to the same. Hopefully, however, it helps people see why there was so much heat for the people talking about elite subjective ratings (offensive awareness, consistency, quickness, etc.) ratings. He wasn't even able to run the PNR last night.

In 11 games, he's had 3 stinkers, against the Hornets, T-Wolves, and Heat.

At NO - 26Pts, 4 Ast, 9 TO. Good scoing night, but his AST to TO Ratio was 1:2. That's a horrible game for a PNR PG.
Vs MIN - 33%FG, 8 Ast, 6 TO. Poor shooting night, 20 Pts on 24FGA, Ast to TO ratio of 1.25:1. Again, horrible for a PNR PG.
At MIA - 1-11FG, 8pts, 3ast, 8 TO. Ast to TO ratio of 1:2.6.

I'm not bashing the kid, but I am pointing out the ugly games he's played (25% of the games he's started) to back up my statement of his subjective ratings needing to be lower than what some posters (and the 2kInsider) think they should be. He's had some very good (and highly exciting) games, but he's also had some very ugly games. To make him play realistically, you have to take both sides into account.

The Heat game was the only really bad game.The other games he had turnover problems but still put up stats.They actually won the Timberwolves game too.

[slimm44]

Re: Jeremy Lin

The Heat game was the only really bad game.The other games he had turnover problems but still put up stats.They actually won the Timberwolves game too.

He had 20 points on over 20 shots. It was an incredibly inefficient game. When the catalyst for your team has 6 turnovers and takes more shots than he scores points, you can probably find the reasons why you won the game in other places. You may not call it a stinker, but I do.

[SwaggerCoach]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I have him at 75 right now running a NYK association and am absolutely carving up opponents on All-Star.

Like a lot of people are saying, you can't just go crazy editing his attributes to raise his overall rating. Considering his high amount of turnovers and his average at best defensive talents, 75-76 seems to be the perfect rating IMO.

IF he played quality defense and protected the ball more often, he would be deserving of 80+. Right now, he reflects the way he's playing in reality with a 75-76 rating. He scores PLENTY, racks up assists, and plays extremely well if you use him properly.

[slimm44]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I have him at 75 right now running a NYK association and am absolutely carving up opponents on All-Star.

Like a lot of people are saying, you can't just go crazy editing his attributes to raise his overall rating. Considering his high amount of turnovers and his average at best defensive talents, 75-76 seems to be the perfect rating IMO.

IF he played quality defense and protected the ball more often, he would be deserving of 80+. Right now, he reflects the way he's playing in reality with a 75-76 rating. He scores PLENTY, racks up assists, and plays extremely well if you use him properly.

I played a game against the Celtics on all star with him and had 17 points, 14 assists, and 6 boards and he has a 72 overall rating.

[bedwardsroy19]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I played a game against the Celtics on all star with him and had 17 points, 14 assists, and 6 boards and he has a 72 overall rating.

It depends what rosters you use to get a good number for overall... Most differences between the 75-76 and the 72 are subjective ratings or even abilities

To be fair playing with a player you can rack up those stats just if you're good at the game. If the CPU did that against you that'd be more impressive