CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

[sreckless]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

<table style="margin-top:5px;margin-bottom:5px;width:90%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td width="75"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="50"><tbody><tr><td width="37">
</td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/07.gif');width:1px;height:24px;background-position:center;" valign="middle" width="100%"> Quote:</td> <td> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td align="left">
</td> <td align="left"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/09.gif');width:100%;height:24px;" nowrap="nowrap" align="left" valign="middle" width="100%"> Originally Posted by apollooff320</td> <td> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td align="right" width="100%"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/11.gif');width:100%;height:24px;" width="100%">
</td> <td align="left"> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/04.gif');width:37px;height:1px;" width="37">
</td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/00.gif');width:100%;height:1px;" width="100%">
</td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/05.gif');width:18px;height:1px;" width="18">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/04.gif');width:37px;height:1px;" width="37">
</td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/00.gif');width:100%;height:1px;" width="100%"> Play the UTAh Jazz and then come back and say play better defense. Its not about not playing defense when the cpu ai is the defender also and Trey Burke isnt running a single play and keeps attacking the paint along with teammates and making a high % of his shots with a much bigger man in him.
</td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/05.gif');width:18px;height:1px;" width="18">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="37"> </td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/02.gif');width:100%;height:14px;" width="100%">
</td> <td width="18"> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

I'll most definitely do that and come back with the results.

I played the Jazz tonight.









The settings were HoF difficulty, simulation sliders, default rosters and default coaching settings, with 6-minute quarters.

As you can see I found Utah to be a handful on HoF difficulty but I didn't exactly see what you are seeing.

Utah had 28 points in the paint out of 54 total, on 51 percent shooting.

Trey Burke was 4-9 with two threes. His other two makes were a layup and a floater, and he also drew a foul somewhere in there. I played man-to-man defense, using on ball defense. I didn't double team him or anything like that.

Unfortunately I'm not set up to do video so I have to make do with the pictures for now, but I just want to say that it is possible to contain the CPU, even though it is very difficult.

It does take both patience AND stick skills, and the trouble is there are not a lot of video game players who have both.

I saw the Jazz run a bunch of plays for Hayward, I saw them post up quite a bit, and sometimes Burke freelanced, like when he was isolated against a big. Once he got matched up with Jeff Green and the team cleared out and Burke iso'd him. Using Green I was able to stay with Burke and got a block (without hitting triangle, just L2) that led to a fast break bucket the other way.

I noticed that one time the Jazz were running a play, with Burke at the top of the key, and when I tried a steal with Rondo, Burke immediately broke the play and drove for the hoop and scored on the floater. This is intelligent AI and it's how the CPU takes advantage of over-aggressive players.

My advice is to go through a game and not use any of the buttons on the controller face. No square, no triangle. Try playing defense with just the sticks and L2 and R2. You'll see a huge difference.

[As for hapa17, read my next post which is specific to your issue]

[sreckless]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

so yeah ... i totally get the "don't play like an a-hole" strategy where you play defense conservatively, but even when i'm making a concerted effort not to allow penetration and basically concede jumpers, i still can't stop a determined driving guard. lowry is a decent PG, but it's not like he should be absolutely torching rondo.

i also have had several instances as described above where the CPU will get a collision animation, it bumps my defender backwards, then the CPU take the step to get into a layup animation, game over.

I'm glad you mentioned that you use the Celtics, since I can tell you that you are seeing a slightly different issue than the others, which is the abnormally low strength rating for your guards.

Bradley is a 30 in strength, one of the lowest ratings in the game for any position and the second lowest at shooting guard (the only shooting guard rated lower is JJ Redick). Most starting SG's have strength ratings in the 50s or low 60s.

Rondo is actually a little bit stronger, but not much, at 37. They're probably the weakest backcourt in the game (I think Minnesota might be even weaker, but everyone knows that Rubio and Martin are poor defenders). Most starters at point guard have strength ratings in the 40s.

Because of the way the game checks the strength rating on defense, Bradley cannot force a dribble pickup on a strong guard even after multiple bump animations. Lowry is one of the game's strongest point guards, at a 65. It's a HUGE mis-match, even though you'd never guess it without knowing the ratings and how they work.

No matter what you do defensively, you will not be able to consistently stop Lowry one-on-one with Bradley, not when Lowry has a dribble in space. He'll just bounce off you until he either gets an opening or he pushes you right into the camera row.

As for my recommendation, it's two-fold. One, don't use Bradley to guard stronger guards. Rely on Courtney Lee for that.

Two, if you absolutely must use Bradley on a big guard, you have to be a little more aggressive. The best thing to do is use L2 to do the "crowd ballhandler" move before the guy starts his dribble, whenever you can. That will take his space away and make him think about passing it. You *may* even be able to get away with using the steal button on the AI when they dribble into you and sometimes get a tipped ball (although this will also tend to put you in foul trouble).

Bradley is also very good at contesting shots, so he can play guards who are primarily jumpshooters (Redick is a good example), just not guys who possess high strength and high handle ratings.

[hapa17]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

I'm glad you mentioned that you use the Celtics, since I can tell you that you are seeing a slightly different issue than the others, which is the abnormally low strength rating for your guards.

Bradley is a 30 in strength, one of the lowest ratings in the game for any position and the second lowest at shooting guard (the only shooting guard rated lower is JJ Redick). Most starting SG's have strength ratings in the 50s or low 60s.

Rondo is actually a little bit stronger, but not much, at 37. They're probably the weakest backcourt in the game (I think Minnesota might be even weaker, but everyone knows that Rubio and Martin are poor defenders). Most starters at point guard have strength ratings in the 40s.

Because of the way the game checks the strength rating on defense, Bradley cannot force a dribble pickup on a strong guard even after multiple bump animations. Lowry is one of the game's strongest point guards, at a 65. It's a HUGE mis-match, even though you'd never guess it without knowing the ratings and how they work.

No matter what you do defensively, you will not be able to consistently stop Lowry one-on-one with Bradley, not when Lowry has a dribble in space. He'll just bounce off you until he either gets an opening or he pushes you right into the camera row.

As for my recommendation, it's two-fold. One, don't use Bradley to guard stronger guards. Rely on Courtney Lee for that.

Two, if you absolutely must use Bradley on a big guard, you have to be a little more aggressive. The best thing to do is use L2 to do the "crowd ballhandler" move before the guy starts his dribble, whenever you can. That will take his space away and make him think about passing it. You *may* even be able to get away with using the steal button on the AI when they dribble into you and sometimes get a tipped ball (although this will also tend to put you in foul trouble).

Bradley is also very good at contesting shots, so he can play guards who are primarily jumpshooters (Redick is a good example), just not guys who possess high strength and high handle ratings.

ok ... that makes sense. the only thing i have a problem with then is bradley is a reigning all-nba 2nd teamer. shouldn't PG strength = ability to take a weaker dude down to the block? and i didn't really play bradley much on lowry ... he was getting kinda killed by derozen, but sensing a size mismatch, I did go to lee more to defend him. in fact, i even went super-big and put jeff green on derozen for a chunk of the game. it was really that lowry-on-rondo matchup where i got killed. and in an earlier game, george hill was basically doing the same thing to rondo.

but ok ... the strength rating thing makes some sense. but then i ask ... if the celts' backcourt is weak, then i'd assume they're a quicker backcourt pairing. so how does one effectively guard opposing ball handlers when you have speed, but not much strength to create collision animations? it just takes inhuman dexterity on the sticks to manually stay in front of a defender? i want to think that the devs built game mechanics that allow us to be effective defenders with a guy like rondo, and even a shutdown defenders with bradley, even without the innate ability to create collisions. i'm practicing at it. maybe it just takes reps. that's totally fine. i just hope that's all i need.

[MrBallaBoy21]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

Playing 1 on 1 in Blacktop Mode will help you get a better feeling for on ball defense. That's the second place I go to when I get a new 2k(training camp is 1st).

[mythreesons]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

I'm glad you mentioned that you use the Celtics, since I can tell you that you are seeing a slightly different issue than the others, which is the abnormally low strength rating for your guards.

Bradley is a 30 in strength, one of the lowest ratings in the game for any position and the second lowest at shooting guard (the only shooting guard rated lower is JJ Redick). Most starting SG's have strength ratings in the 50s or low 60s.

Rondo is actually a little bit stronger, but not much, at 37. They're probably the weakest backcourt in the game (I think Minnesota might be even weaker, but everyone knows that Rubio and Martin are poor defenders). Most starters at point guard have strength ratings in the 40s.

Because of the way the game checks the strength rating on defense, Bradley cannot force a dribble pickup on a strong guard even after multiple bump animations. Lowry is one of the game's strongest point guards, at a 65. It's a HUGE mis-match, even though you'd never guess it without knowing the ratings and how they work.

No matter what you do defensively, you will not be able to consistently stop Lowry one-on-one with Bradley, not when Lowry has a dribble in space. He'll just bounce off you until he either gets an opening or he pushes you right into the camera row.

As for my recommendation, it's two-fold. One, don't use Bradley to guard stronger guards. Rely on Courtney Lee for that.

Two, if you absolutely must use Bradley on a big guard, you have to be a little more aggressive. The best thing to do is use L2 to do the "crowd ballhandler" move before the guy starts his dribble, whenever you can. That will take his space away and make him think about passing it. You *may* even be able to get away with using the steal button on the AI when they dribble into you and sometimes get a tipped ball (although this will also tend to put you in foul trouble).

Bradley is also very good at contesting shots, so he can play guards who are primarily jumpshooters (Redick is a good example), just not guys who possess high strength and high handle ratings.

Good stuff! I wasn't aware of the strength rating, but it makes perfect sense. I run with the Heat and I've notice that Chalmers gets used by certain guards, while Wade can lock down or hold his own with most. Lots of things to consider when defending on ball. Chalmers hands are pretty quick, and arms are pretty long (not sure if this is factored in) so sometimes he can make up for being out muscled by deflecting the ball - though this is a risky strategy consider potential for fouls.

The more I play defense with this game the more I like it!

[mythreesons]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

In the old movie 'Jurasic Park' they said that the Raptors would systematically test the electrical fences for weaknesses. Think of the CPU as a Raptor. Points in the paint are often a result of weak on-ball defense. If you're out of position or mis-matched, they will attack at that pont. You can remedy this to a degree with 'Lock Down the Paint' defense, but you will be vunerable to open threes.

I love this chess match.

[hapa17]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

Chalmers hands are pretty quick, and arms are pretty long (not sure if this is factored in) so sometimes he can make up for being out muscled by deflecting the ball - though this is a risky strategy consider potential for fouls.

right. perhaps it's more legitimate to swipe at the ball more with defenders who are quick but not strong, like a rondo or bradley. of course, aside from it being a generally frowned upon behavior, you're also likely to commit a poop-ton of fouls. so my options seem like, try to body up and stay in front of the slippery-as-hell ballhandler or swipe like hell at the ball, risking bad positioning and foul trouble.

I love this chess match.

i presume this is a chess match, i'm just not seeing a viable counter-move with a low-strength, above-average defender like rondo. but ... try as i might, i've always been horrible at chess.

again though, i'm just trying to talk this through. i'm not saying there's anything wrong with the game, i'm just trying to understand the proper way of going about defending the ballhandler with a low-strength defender.

[mythreesons]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

right. perhaps it's more legitimate to swipe at the ball more with defenders who are quick but not strong, like a rondo or bradley. of course, aside from it being a generally frowned upon behavior, you're also likely to commit a poop-ton of fouls. so my options seem like, try to body up and stay in front of the slippery-as-hell ballhandler or swipe like hell at the ball, risking bad positioning and foul trouble.



i presume this is a chess match, i'm just not seeing a viable counter-move with a low-strength, above-average defender like rondo. but ... try as i might, i've always been horrible at chess.

again though, i'm just trying to talk this through. i'm not saying there's anything wrong with the game, i'm just trying to understand the proper way of going about defending the ballhandler with a low-strength defender.

A 'B' button flop might be an option, though I've never tried that. Usually when I get a guard who is bent on getting to the rack and I have bumped him a couple of times and he's still coming I call for the double team. Again this is risky, but it has resulted in a turnover some of the time.

Most of the time he'll give up if you can stop him square, by that I mean he's not slide off you to the side. We (Heat) lost to DRose 97-95 and we were successful in keeping him out of the paint, altough he still scored 30 on 11-26 shooting.

Much easier to keep a PG from PIP if he's not a good shooter, like Rondo or Rubio. Strong, quick, scoring guards are another story, but I have gotten better at thwarting their attempts and making them give the ball up.

By the way, I play All Star/Sim.

[Sundown]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

right. perhaps it's more legitimate to swipe at the ball more with defenders who are quick but not strong, like a rondo or bradley. of course, aside from it being a generally frowned upon behavior, you're also likely to commit a poop-ton of fouls. so my options seem like, try to body up and stay in front of the slippery-as-hell ballhandler or swipe like hell at the ball, risking bad positioning and foul trouble.



i presume this is a chess match, i'm just not seeing a viable counter-move with a low-strength, above-average defender like rondo. but ... try as i might, i've always been horrible at chess.

again though, i'm just trying to talk this through. i'm not saying there's anything wrong with the game, i'm just trying to understand the proper way of going about defending the ballhandler with a low-strength defender.

So much of the PG points-in-paint problem is due to the hyper-aggressiveness of the CPU at attacking the basket with default sliders. This is why many slider sets drop the Attack the Basket tendency. Most of them have it set to 25-35 and decrease inside shots while increasing midrange shooting. This seems to work.

With the CPU attacking so hard on default, it will try repeated iso moves and bull into the paint over and over until you make a mistake or slippage happens. And because it doesn't lose the ball from driving into the paint constantly or lose fatigue or handles regardless of how we bump it, we see over-aggressive CPU and it having success.

I believe this actually may reveal a problem with the defensive modelling, and why I also saw this problem online against players using elite PGs to do the same thing.

You can get a much better experience by using the sliders to tone down Attack the Basket. I actually have it set at 40 instead the usual 25-35 because I want the CPU to stay aggressive. It will however, quit earlier if you stop it once or twice and it will also look for other plays. In a way, this masks what I think might be a problem by forcing the CPU to play less cheesily. Or maybe I'm just a bad on-ball defender AND interior defender, but regardless, the sliders help quite a bit in forcing the CPU to not be so one-dimensional.

In essence, there are mechanics in the game that work and don't work, and then there are CPU tendencies. Ideally, things that work should be realistic and the CPU should probe for weaknesses, resulting in a smart, balanced, varied, and optimal offense-- but sometimes the way it does this is bull-headed and sometimes its unrealistic success rate makes things worse. We can tone that down by adjusting CPU tendencies, even though it'd be nice to tune the unrealistic mechanics its taking advantage of as well (if this is truly the case).

Even if the defensive mechanics are actually fine, I'd still recommend knocking down Attack the Basket, because the CPU will also repeatedly attack it to its own detriment at times, ie. all the reports of Trey Burke paint spamming and taking shots like Allen Iverson.

[sreckless]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

again though, i'm just trying to talk this through. i'm not saying there's anything wrong with the game, i'm just trying to understand the proper way of going about defending the ballhandler with a low-strength defender.

I probably didn't make this clear in my previous post but -- IMO -- it IS a flaw in the game.

Strength affects ALL the contact interactions between the offense and the defense -- it's not just a measurement of who can back down who in the post. Playing defense is all about forcing the "defensive bump" animations, and having high strength allows players to either ignore those bumps or recover from them easily.

High strength, low skill interior players like Perkins, Reggie Evans, Pekovic, etc. play well above their ratings because the game allows them to bull through the bump animations and ignore whatever the defense does around them.

Same thing on the perimeter -- when there's a high strength differential the "good defense" animations just don't work. If anyone wants to see the full extent of this effect, play the CPU Nuggets and wait for them to bring out Nate Robinson (75 strength). He simply can't be stopped by any defense you bring with weaker players like Bradley, much less an "average" defender who is also weak, like a Brandon Jennings.

IMO, the range of high to low strength in the rosters needs to be narrower.

[apollooff320]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

<table style="margin-top:5px;margin-bottom:5px;width:90%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td width="75"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="50"><tbody><tr><td width="37">
</td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/07.gif');width:1px;height:24px;background-position:center;" valign="middle" width="100%"> Quote:</td> <td> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td align="left">
</td> <td align="left"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/09.gif');width:100%;height:24px;" nowrap="nowrap" align="left" valign="middle" width="100%"> Originally Posted by apollooff320</td> <td> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td align="right" width="100%"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/11.gif');width:100%;height:24px;" width="100%">
</td> <td align="left"> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/04.gif');width:37px;height:1px;" width="37">
</td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/00.gif');width:100%;height:1px;" width="100%">
</td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/05.gif');width:18px;height:1px;" width="18">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/04.gif');width:37px;height:1px;" width="37">
</td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/00.gif');width:100%;height:1px;" width="100%"> Play the UTAh Jazz and then come back and say play better defense. Its not about not playing defense when the cpu ai is the defender also and Trey Burke isnt running a single play and keeps attacking the paint along with teammates and making a high % of his shots with a much bigger man in him.
</td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/05.gif');width:18px;height:1px;" width="18">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="37"> </td> <td style="background-image: url('/forums/images/quotes/02.gif');width:100%;height:14px;" width="100%">
</td> <td width="18"> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>


I played the Jazz tonight.









The settings were HoF difficulty, simulation sliders, default rosters and default coaching settings, with 6-minute quarters.

As you can see I found Utah to be a handful on HoF difficulty but I didn't exactly see what you are seeing.

Utah had 28 points in the paint out of 54 total, on 51 percent shooting.

Trey Burke was 4-9 with two threes. His other two makes were a layup and a floater, and he also drew a foul somewhere in there. I played man-to-man defense, using on ball defense. I didn't double team him or anything like that.

Unfortunately I'm not set up to do video so I have to make do with the pictures for now, but I just want to say that it is possible to contain the CPU, even though it is very difficult.

It does take both patience AND stick skills, and the trouble is there are not a lot of video game players who have both.

I saw the Jazz run a bunch of plays for Hayward, I saw them post up quite a bit, and sometimes Burke freelanced, like when he was isolated against a big. Once he got matched up with Jeff Green and the team cleared out and Burke iso'd him. Using Green I was able to stay with Burke and got a block (without hitting triangle, just L2) that led to a fast break bucket the other way.

I noticed that one time the Jazz were running a play, with Burke at the top of the key, and when I tried a steal with Rondo, Burke immediately broke the play and drove for the hoop and scored on the floater. This is intelligent AI and it's how the CPU takes advantage of over-aggressive players.

My advice is to go through a game and not use any of the buttons on the controller face. No square, no triangle. Try playing defense with just the sticks and L2 and R2. You'll see a huge difference.

[As for hapa17, read my next post which is specific to your issue]

sure did take you a while to post back in this thread...how many times did u play to get what you wanted to see?others already posted about the same issue I had with him. Also I rarely use the steal key and never use the jump button. I stopped that with the release of 2K11, so you're making assumptions that ppl go around pressing the steal and jump button all day is wrong. Have you been in the roster thread to know that everyone is complaining about the CPU not running plays and forcing it in the paint most of the time?

[sreckless]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

sure did take you a while to post back in this thread...how many times did u play to get what you wanted to see?others already posted about the same issue I had with him. Also I rarely use the steal key and never use the jump button. I stopped that with the release of 2K11, so you're making assumptions that ppl go around pressing the steal and jump button all day is wrong. Have you been in the roster thread to know that everyone is complaining about the CPU not running plays and forcing it in the paint most of the time?

Well, unfortunately, I have a job. So I replied to your post, then I went to work. Then I went home and played that game, which was the first and only game I played.

I have not been in the roster thread. If their complaints are the same as yours, then I'd give them the same advice, which I outlined above.

If you choose to believe you are not capable of getting similar results as I did, and you're happy with that choice, then so be it. But it's your choice.

[hapa17]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

Well, unfortunately, I have a job.

i heard that. i'm so busy lately, i ain't played in a couple days. i use the chit-chat in this thread to help tide me over until i find some free time to get on the sticks! that's why i be posting while i'm at work and at 2:30 in the morning (i finally have a moment to myself, and it's too late to be firing up a game right now).

[32MJ32]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

I've been a member here for a long time and it's not often I log on to complain out of frustration but I need to vent before I airmail my controller.

The seemingly random disengagement of your defender's body from the AI's ball handler is absolutely maddening. Crossover, bump, crossover, bump, crossover, no bump, layup. Rinse and repeat. Why is it the first 2 crossovers the AI decides my defender is in the way but on the 3rd, no bump? Right then the CPU can go straight into a lightening fast two-step layup without the need for any forward momentum.

Couple that with the fact that your bigs make absolutely no attempt to protect the basket of their own volition (they won't even foul) and you have a layup line.

The simple answer is that I should just roam around with a big guy and let the CPU guard the ballhanders but you know what? I don't want to do that and I should be given better tools to play the way I want to. Tools that don't include messing with the sliders to make the CPU shoot more jumpers.

The shading is *** cheeks, too. In real life, you shade a guy to push him in a particular direction, and when he does, you slide with him and eventually cut him off. In 2K, you shade a guy to push him in a particular direction, when he does, you bump him once then square your stance right away. What's the point of that?

I'm not here seeking solutions because I'll work it out eventually, but this is by far the worst out-of-the-box 2K14 I've played, in terms of my personal enjoyment. If anyone from 2K is reading, you messed this up

[stillfeelme]

Re: CPU Points in the Paint = JOKE!

They made your CPU AI so dumb I don't know what to say other than that. The slippery defense why?