problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

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  • Pared
    Legen - WAIT FOR IT
    • Feb 2003
    • 39337

    #61
    Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

    Originally posted by Benicio10
    I disagree, Pared. As blues rocker pointed out. When you try to mimic a real life body, there is a finite objective.

    You can plot a person's body shape on a graph and try to achieve those points. There's no subjectivity in trying to match proportions to a real-life shape that exists.

    EA hasn't done this yet. 2K has done a much better job of it.
    The problem is, it's a comparison. There will always be objectivity.

    This goes for anything. I'm not saying the models are close or not, but you could tell someone that what they are seeing is a 100%, true to life replica... and there will always be an individual that disagrees.

    Not saying they are right or wrong, just that the devs will never have true, 100% accuracy in the eyes of gamers.
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    [OS Vets NBA 2k7 Champion]
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    Comment

    • MarvellousOne
      No need for Titles
      • Sep 2005
      • 1834

      #62
      Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

      Without using true NBA players in a virtual reality ordeal, I don't believe we will see 100% accurate player models...just my opinion on the matter.

      Great thread by the way, I did like how you pointed out the things that was flawed with the models.

      Comment

      • Benicio10
        Pro
        • Jun 2007
        • 670

        #63
        Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

        Originally posted by Pared
        The problem is, it's a comparison. There will always be objectivity.

        This goes for anything. I'm not saying the models are close or not, but you could tell someone that what they are seeing is a 100%, true to life replica... and there will always be an individual that disagrees.

        Not saying they are right or wrong, just that the devs will never have true, 100% accuracy in the eyes of gamers.
        I agree with that, but it doesn't mean the development team shouldn't strive for 100%, however.

        I'm sure you can agree that if the body proportions become close to 100%, then you will see less complaints.

        I hate to keep making the example of MLB The Show, but look at the game. Sure, people will chime in on forums with suggestions, but it's clear the developers strive for perfection.

        Either Live's art team is not striving for exact body types (which is not difficult to assume based on screenshots that OS users quickly tore apart) or they are not talented enough to make it happen.

        Comment

        • BiggD
          MVP
          • Sep 2003
          • 2487

          #64
          Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

          Originally posted by Benicio10
          I agree with that, but it doesn't mean the development team shouldn't strive for 100%, however.

          I'm sure you can agree that if the body proportions become close to 100%, then you will see less complaints.

          I hate to keep making the example of MLB The Show, but look at the game. Sure, people will chime in on forums with suggestions, but it's clear the developers strive for perfection.

          Either Live's art team is not striving for exact body types (which is not difficult to assume based on screenshots that OS users quickly tore apart) or they are not talented enough to make it happen.
          I second this... I'm pretty sure live and 2k use "templates" for there sizing.. great thread btw
          My All-time Favourite players is order:
          1.Larry Johnson
          2.Kevin Garnett
          3.Blake Griffin
          4.Ben Wallace
          5.Shawn Kemp

          Comment

          • Pared
            Legen - WAIT FOR IT
            • Feb 2003
            • 39337

            #65
            Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

            Originally posted by Benicio10
            I agree with that, but it doesn't mean the development team shouldn't strive for 100%, however.

            I'm sure you can agree that if the body proportions become close to 100%, then you will see less complaints.

            I hate to keep making the example of MLB The Show, but look at the game. Sure, people will chime in on forums with suggestions, but it's clear the developers strive for perfection.

            Either Live's art team is not striving for exact body types (which is not difficult to assume based on screenshots that OS users quickly tore apart) or they are not talented enough to make it happen.
            Yup. Well put.
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            [OS Vets NBA 2k7 Champion]
            Now Playing: TLOU: Remastered
            Operation Sports is NOT a website for you to bitch and moan about sports gaming.
            That's not the meaning of constructive criticism.

            *Official Miami Heat Haters Club Member #1*

            Comment

            • ai2k2
              Pro
              • Aug 2002
              • 798

              #66
              Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

              ^Agreed. I know we are judging early and the pic's are WIP. But perfection, perfection, perfection. That's why Jordan is a Legend, Muhammad Ali, Biggie, even why though Wade and LeBron are great Kobe gets the nod hands down. Never settle. Don't get us wrong, the pics look great. Nothing like any other Live. But we want perfection. Doesn't have to be all in one year. To the Live guys, look... you guys are doing a hell of a job, we are just classic lovers. If it isn't hands down better then anything that is or was on the market why do it???... that's just with anything. Just saying, I know Live 10 is going to knock socks off. But... y'all get the point.

              Comment

              • michaeljordanjr
                Banned
                • Jun 2009
                • 972

                #67
                Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

                Originally posted by Pared
                The problem is, it's a comparison. There will always be objectivity.

                This goes for anything. I'm not saying the models are close or not, but you could tell someone that what they are seeing is a 100%, true to life replica... and there will always be an individual that disagrees.

                Not saying they are right or wrong, just that the devs will never have true, 100% accuracy in the eyes of gamers.
                Well, not necessarily. I haven't heard much about people thinking NBA 2K models look awkward. I always hear it about Live though.

                Sure 2K facial modeling is off a lot but that's the hardest part of the model.

                Overall the consensus is and has been NBA Live models need work. But the gameplay has been so bad that it takes priority, even though I wished this year they'd focus on both of those stringently.

                I think a good example of how awkward Live models are is The Matrix Reloaded. Remember when Neo fought 100 agents in the park and they turned him into a CGI character. He looked so awkward and non-realistic that it took you out of the moment of the fight. The CGI in movies is no where near photo-realistic yet and people have great eyes at catching what looks wrong.

                Comment

                • pbz06
                  Banned
                  • Oct 2008
                  • 1504

                  #68
                  Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

                  Originally posted by ai2k2
                  ^Agreed. I know we are judging early and the pic's are WIP. But perfection, perfection, perfection. That's why Jordan is a Legend, Muhammad Ali, Biggie, even why though Wade and LeBron are great Kobe gets the nod hands down. Never settle. Don't get us wrong, the pics look great. Nothing like any other Live. But we want perfection. Doesn't have to be all in one year. To the Live guys, look... you guys are doing a hell of a job, we are just classic lovers. If it isn't hands down better then anything that is or was on the market why do it???... that's just with anything. Just saying, I know Live 10 is going to knock socks off. But... y'all get the point.
                  As I always say, little details like that will eventually come in later iterations. Right now Live 10 should focus on critical aspects of core basketball gameplay.

                  Comment

                  • Dalsanto0026
                    Banned
                    • Aug 2007
                    • 729

                    #69
                    Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

                    Originally posted by michaeljordanjr
                    Well, not necessarily. I haven't heard much about people thinking NBA 2K models look awkward. I always hear it about Live though.

                    Sure 2K facial modeling is off a lot but that's the hardest part of the model.

                    Overall the consensus is and has been NBA Live models need work. But the gameplay has been so bad that it takes priority, even though I wished this year they'd focus on both of those stringently.

                    I think a good example of how awkward Live models are is The Matrix Reloaded. Remember when Neo fought 100 agents in the park and they turned him into a CGI character. He looked so awkward and non-realistic that it took you out of the moment of the fight. The CGI in movies is no where near photo-realistic yet and people have great eyes at catching what looks wrong.
                    Exactly.

                    I agree with the Matrix Reloaded analogy. I was the only one amongst my friends who wasn't impressed by that scene. I guess that's why EA isn't that fussed, maybe they feel most people won't notice. Us hardcore types are in the minority after all.

                    Comment

                    • HOLLIDAY1183
                      Rookie
                      • Oct 2008
                      • 459

                      #70
                      Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

                      This is the most constructive feedback thread I've ever seen. Just got back from reading a name-calling, flamethrowing 2Ksports thread lol

                      I just DL'ed the Live demo today to get a feel for Live after playing 2K all year and... while Live 09 isn't quite there yet with respect to player movement and animations, and some little details (net/ball interaction, etc), I actually had a blast playing it, and as someone who loves 2K9, I feel that Live has a true chance, if it handles some of the nagging problems since coming to next gen, it has a true chance of getting my $60 this year. I was so delighted that there weren't canned two-player animations telling me I want to go for the hesitation, to contest a layup weakly, that I was rematching the demo and playing over and over, LOL

                      But the OP is right, and I like how he brought his observation from a technical standpoint. I only have a business degree, but I understand what you're saying. The one nagging thing though that they did fix for 10, was the skinny legs, and I think that will be enough for many of us for this year.

                      Man, this Mike Wang guy must be a programming god, I hear his name so much on both forums as why Live will retake the crown.
                      NOW PLAYING:
                      NBA 2K16, MGS5

                      WAITING FOR:
                      Fallout 4

                      Wife: "Of course he's going out to get his 2K game at 12am, like he can't wait til tomorrow."
                      Wife's mom: "Be grateful that's what he's running out at midnight for."

                      Comment

                      • Benicio10
                        Pro
                        • Jun 2007
                        • 670

                        #71
                        Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

                        Originally posted by stephensonmc
                        funny you mentioned this. This is the kind of thread I like to see because it has examples, and is correct in alot of ways.

                        We know about our forearms. did we have to make tradeoffs this year with our models? Absolutely.
                        Just wondering ... what trade-offs are you referring to?

                        Comment

                        • Ankido
                          Pro
                          • Jul 2003
                          • 855

                          #72
                          Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

                          You guys can argue this until your face turns blue; Live and 2k both have issues with player models especially when it comes to facial features. I've seen players that look dead on as their counterparts in Live while in 2k they looked disfigured. This goes for both games. I don't think you should be hard on the developers when it comes to elbows and forearms. What matters most is the game play which live has taken a step in the "WHAT THE HELL IS GOING" direction. Live players bounce around the court like they have springs in their spinal cords. The most important thing and #1 priority in live is fixing the game play. 2nd most important thing is getting the facial features correct. Then we can all worry about elbows. Great post man, but you're nit picking.

                          Remember, 2k players are much bigger then live. You honestly can't tell what the graphics lare like unless you zoom in during instant replay. And another thing for EA Sports developers; you want to promote authenticity, you better get on it FAST.

                          Comment

                          • LEGENDoflegends
                            Rookie
                            • Dec 2007
                            • 59

                            #73
                            Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

                            I don't care what Live does in terms of gameplay improvements, as long as they have them ridiculously looking player models, there is no way I'm buying that game. The thinking is if u don't know what a realistical NBA basketball player looks like then how can you make me a basketball game?

                            Look at the pics of Nash, that's just no excuse for that. Is it not common sense that Nash obviously don't have those big shoulders and arms? All live player models follow this same ridiculous pattern year after year, and thats why I will continue to not purchased their basketball product year after year.
                            Last edited by LEGENDoflegends; 07-22-2009, 09:28 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Dalsanto0026
                              Banned
                              • Aug 2007
                              • 729

                              #74
                              Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

                              Originally posted by LEGENDoflegends
                              I don't care what Live does in terms of gameplay improvements, as long as they have them ridiculously looking player models, there is no way I'm buying that game. The thinking is if u don't know what a realistical NBA basketball player looks like then how can you make me a basketball game?

                              Look at the pics of Nash, that's just no excuse for that. Is it not common sense that Nash obviously don't have those big shoulders and arms? All live player models follow this same ridiculous pattern year after year, and thats why I will continue to not purchased their basketball product year after year.

                              I agree with you. I want a game that looks realistic. If EA want's to convince us that they are going sim this year, then they're off to a bad start. For the sake of authenticity could they for once get the player models to not look cartoon-ish?

                              EA, sim means an accurate representation of the sport, that includes the player models.

                              Comment

                              • pbz06
                                Banned
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 1504

                                #75
                                Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

                                ....aaaaand here they come

                                Comment

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