problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

[LEGENDoflegends]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

i didn't really want to chime in here... but i don't want ryan and co. to get thrown under the bus. believe me when i say that the artists here are incredibly strong, and yes, they understand limb scaling and human anatomy. it's not a trivial task to just re-scale the humerus bone like you use the paintbrush tool in photoshop. even the slightest tweak to our player skeleton would force us to have to re-target every single animation in our game... which is a painful process and would take an animation team a significant amount of time, obviously pulling them away from doing other important tasks. we have a finite amount of time to take on as much as we possibly can in a dev cycle, and it's always a challenge for us to pick our battles.

not trying to make excuses for any shortcomings you guys are seeing in the screenshots... just wanted to shed some light on the reality of where we are. I think the visuals in Live 10 are leaps and bounds better than previous titles. And as I play the game every day, I never find myself taken out of the experience because of bad art... which is something I can't say is true of the past few years of Live. We all appreciate the feedback and I'm always amazed at the level of detail you guys scrutinize. Just know that most of it is probably not news to us.

Good point, in so many words I think u are saying we are stuck with the playermodels because basically changing the player models would be basically changing the foundation of the game since you'll have to redefine the animations and so forth, correct?

I think this goes in-line of what I mentioned earlier.

[thesniper321]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

I made some comments on the Live player models in another thread but I decided to create a thread and include my own photoshopped image to show what I am talking about.

I am a digital artist and have a lot of experience with anatomy and some experience with 3D character models. I have noticed the same recurring problems with Live's player models for years, and I was hopeful that they would be fixed this year, but after viewing the new screenshots it's apparent they still haven't fixed the "forearm problem" that has plagued Live's player models for years. So I have finally decided to do something about it and show the developers exactly what I'm talking about.

In Live's player models, the forearms look very awkward as they attach to biceps. see steve nash's bent arm in the original EA pic on the right - as the forearm meets the biceps, it looks too thick and doesn't blend smoothly into the biceps - there is a harsh skin fold and shadow where the forearm attaches, making the forearm look detached from the biceps, as opposed to blending smoothly into the bicep (2k's player models do not have this issue with their arms). the forearm also appears too long and attaches too far back on the biceps area - this makes the arm look too long and awkward at some viewing angles and especially when the arm is in certain positions (like when the arm is bent in the steve nash pic).

below I quickly did some things in photoshop to fix the problems and put the original pic from EA next to it for comparison.

In my photoshopped image on the left, you can see Nash's arms are now skinnier and his shoulders are narrower - his head and neck are also larger so they are in proportion with his torso and arms. i think this is closer to the real Steve Nash than the original screenshot. Nash has pretty skinny arms in real life, yet in the original screen shot his forearms and upper arms look too big and bulky. in the original pic he looks like he's been taking steroids or something.

Overall Live's arms and shoulders are just too big and their necks/heads are too small in relation to their bodies.

on some of the player models their arms and shoulders need to be narrower and thinner to match their real life counterparts - this is one thing 2k has done well - 2k has a nice variety of body types. in 2k, skinny guys like tayshaun prince and garnett really have long, skinny arms, and bulky guys like shaq and ben wallace have very thick arms. Looking at these Live pics, almost all the players seem to have similar arms and body types.


I would also say that in Live's models the wrists are too skinny and their hands are too big (see the deron williams pic below).


in summary:

1. make the necks and heads a bit bigger

2. make the forearms, biceps, and shoulders less bulky

3. fix the infamous "forearm problem" so the forearms attach to biceps properly (Live's forearms are too thick and should not look so "detached" from the bicep) - see my image above for example. seriously - it's too far into this generation of systems to still be seeing freaky deformed forearms on the models.

4. more variety in body types (skinny players like tayshaun prince should have very long, skinny arms in comparison to other players. thicker players like nate robinson or shaq should have noticeably thicker arms than other players).

5. make the hands smaller and the wrists a bit thicker.

sorry about the lengthy post, but I am a professional artist and have a passion for this kind of thing.

Now you can close this thread and argument cuz on the new wcreens steve nash IS ON POINT

[Ankido]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

I don't think some of you guys understand how video games are designed. You sit here and whine about Madden and Live yet you don't listen. When Ian said our engine is limited to what and how many animations we could use; you guys still went after him asking questions about animations. You guys have the Live team trying to explain things to you yet you still don't want to listen.

Here's my advice to you. Don't bother discussing Live until you play the demo. Obviously you guys are not experienced gamers to understand what's more important in a video game. If you think graphics are important in a sports title; go jump out the window now. The single most important thing about sports SIMULATION is game play.

I'm not trying to call people stupid or saying the Developers don't know what they're doing. It all comes down to common sense. NBA LIVE SERIES has had the worse game play ins ports history. You guys know that and so do we. Yet you guys continue to ignore what's more important to the game. Take this thread as a suggestion and move on with it. We all know fixing the graphics won't solve the many problems with live.

[ai2k2]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

That makes sense Beluba. I guess next yr when development time is refreshed for lack of a better time. You guys can tweek a few things. But to be honest I just saw some new pics at espn. http://sports.espn.go.com/videogames...ory?id=4349113 and I can already see the diff. The crowds look up to par with 2k9 and if 2k used the same crowd tech 2k10 and that's a leap for the Live team. The arenas look amazingly detailed as well. I'm ready for Oct... This thread is basically done with. The peace was said. If you guys don't understand what was said, then I have to assume you don't understand the english language. They know what's wrong, and that's all we wanted. Peace and Love!

[pbz06]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

Pbz06 it would be nice if you didn't resort to name-calling. If you don't agree that's fine, but we can do without the insults thanks.

There's nothing wrong with a little criticism, the problem is there are too many people that are being lenient towards EA. Don't get me wrong, I like what I'm hearing from Steph and Beluba and I hope they achieve their goal, but if the player models don't look realistic then we should call them out for it as they're meant to be striving for an authentic experience. We know gameplay is the most important thing, but why can't we have both? Is that too much to ask? Some people make out like we're nitpicking when we're just passionate about getting a next-gen experience, we're not talking about the PS2 or XBOX versions here.

Don't get the wrong message, I want this game to be good and look forward to seeing gameplay footage to get a better idea of what's in store for us this year.

Cheers

Sorry, I didn't realize calling out somebody for trolling is name calling. I give my apology for that. I guess him calling me stupid and blind is not OK either

Back on topic, the player models look amazing

I'm looking forward to seeing gameplay, which has (and should) got the main focus and priority from the EA Live team. W00t.

[Pared]

Re: problems with Live's player models - my critique (images and examples included)

I guess him calling me stupid and blind is not OK either

The whole thing was dealt with. Let's stop going backwards and focus on the topic.