Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

[Admiral50]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

Expecting EA to respond is laughable.

One of the biggest gaming companies responding to a sulking ex-employee, (who has lost almost all respect from me since saying what he said publicly) who was with the team for what, 12 months?

Come on.

Regardless of how good or bad their games have been, EA know how to market their products so have no need to respond to any such comments, they'll let their game speak for itself in 8 or 9 months time.

And if you guys really are phychic and have already determined that Live 11 is going to be an arcade suck-fest, then EA can scrap their game if it flops. But for now you're all getting a bit carried away.

I think the main reason for that is wrongly placed loyalty in an individual simply because they have been on this forum like 'one of the guys' for so long. It's wrong really.

Just like Live, 2K has also sucked for a number of different years, even since following the NBA Live blue print of Hip-Hop music, an attempt to copy Freestyle control and other things. So if Mike Wang is the God you say he is, how can a game have been so bad on more than one yearly effort?

And on ANOTHER note: there is nothing wrong with changing direction or even starting fresh every once in a while. As much as I've enjoyed 2K and put it light years ahead of Live on a number of efforts, it STILL feels like the 10 year old engine under all the current layers.

Long story short:
- 2K11 will be typical 2K
- Live will still be fine and probably not that different from where 2010 took it
- One dev cannot drastically change the quality of a single game for good or bad
- Mike Wang will never work for another company outside of 2K

[brahmagoul]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

Is there really a lot they can change in one year, unless it involves a new engine? The more I think about it, the more I think Wang leaving EA helps 2K's game than hurts Live. 2K made its biggest stride with 2K8, then I guess that's when Wang left. One thing Wang said that stuck with me was how Live's engine allows you to do more. That's encouraging because they were on the right track. I seriously doubt EA will get away from that because if it's one thing it has proved with these games, it's that they don't change too drastically.

I don't expect drastic changes because one man came and left. He had a positive impact and probably made a few co-workers better there. I'd expect big changes in gimmicks, not gameplay. That's typically been EA's M.O. across the board.

[sportyguyfl31]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

The most distrubing thing for me, is that this confirms what many of us have thought about EA sports games for years.

They either

1) Do not understand what SIM is.

2) They do not believe that SIM can sell.

For now, Im going to assume that they have at least the sense to realize, that NBA Live 2003-2004 era gameplay is over, and that is not going to be acceptable

[ataman5]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

The most distrubing thing for me, is that this confirms what many of us have thought about EA sports games for years.

They either

1) Do not understand what SIM is.

2) They do not believe that SIM can sell.

For now, Im going to assume that they have at least the sense to realize, that NBA Live 2003-2004 era gameplay is over, and that is not going to be acceptable

Or we got older and can't accept the way it was.

[Pared]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

I still can't believe people are begging for "competition" and already writing EA off totally. How is that for irony?

To say some overreact to things like this is an understatement.

And since when did "different direction" mean the game was going to suck? EA went in a different direction when they killed off Triple Play. A large group loved MVP Baseball, the result of that.

You guys are doing the same, exact thing you did when Mike left and articles were published about him by EA. You're buying into this marketing garbage when all that matters is the actual game that you end up playing.

It really saddens me as a gamer and a member of this forum. OS gets touted as THE place to be for sports gamers, and apparently that doesn't mean you can see beyond the marketing glitz.

[ehh]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

I still can't believe people are begging for "competition" and already writing EA off totally. How is that for irony?

To say some overreact to things like this is an understatement.

And since when did "different direction" mean the game was going to suck? EA went in a different direction when they killed off Triple Play. A large group loved MVP Baseball, the result of that.

You guys are doing the same, exact thing you did when Mike left and articles were published about him by EA. You're buying into this marketing garbage when all that matters is the actual game that you end up playing.

It really saddens me as a gamer and a member of this forum. OS gets touted as THE place to be for sports gamers, and apparently that doesn't mean you can see beyond the marketing glitz.

I don't see how this situation falls into "marketing glitz". It doesn't take a genius to figure out that...

A) Live has sucked for the better part of a decade
B) Live 10 was far and away the best version in years and the first to draw many 2Kers
C) Regardless of Wang's role in all of this, Live "changing direction" after finally giving sim gamers a game they could enjoy does not look good. Live 11 could certainly be a good game, but Live 10 was finally the first step in the right direction in the eyes of many gamers and take deviate from that course so quickly does not sound very appetizing.

Also, Triple Play was a horrible game, not a game on the rise like Live. This would have been like EA changing direction after MVP '04, not Triple Play.


You don't need marketing, press releases or employees changing companies to figure any of that out.

[DJ]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

I still can't believe people are begging for "competition" and already writing EA off totally. How is that for irony?

To say some overreact to things like this is an understatement.

And since when did "different direction" mean the game was going to suck? EA went in a different direction when they killed off Triple Play. A large group loved MVP Baseball, the result of that.

You guys are doing the same, exact thing you did when Mike left and articles were published about him by EA. You're buying into this marketing garbage when all that matters is the actual game that you end up playing.

It really saddens me as a gamer and a member of this forum. OS gets touted as THE place to be for sports gamers, and apparently that doesn't mean you can see beyond the marketing glitz.

I'm sure there will be people that are taking a "wait and see" approach with NBA Live. But, you have to admit, it doesn't look good when Marcus and Wang, two pretty vital pieces to what made Live 10 so good, are no longer on the project.

I think what people are really upset with is EA's company stance. A lot of SIM gamers don't feel that EA Sports really "gets" them. As Sporty said, it's almost like they have this idea that they have to tear down their house every year and build a new one, when there isn't a lot wrong with the current foundation.

I understand wanting to develop a gameplay concept that will entice buyers, both new and long-time, to buy the game. But at what cost? Look at Madden and NCAA Football. When both moved over to the 360/PS3, everyone assumed that things would continue in line with what we saw the previous generation. That obviously didn't happen. EA, instead of focusing its efforts on making the gameplay tight, got caught up in things that, while important, don't trump gameplay, like graphics. The result? A lot of average or below-average performances from two top-flight games in their library. After a few years of sub-standard games, some people stopped buying football games this year and as a result, sales were down even though Madden 10 and NCAA 10 (debatable) were improved and played a decent game of football.

We see the same thing going with Live. The first few Live's on the 360/PS3 were terrible. No two ways around that. Live 09 showed improvement and Live 10 wound up being a really good game. The controls, spacing and half-court game are top-notch and the crowd atmosphere is also really well done. When you look at it, Live had finally developed a solid foundation and all Live 11 needed to do was build upon that.

But, EA, at least from what Wang is telling us, doesn't want to build on that foundation. They want to tear things down -- again -- and start over in a new direction. Now who knows, that new direction may be great. It may be terribly bad. We'll have to wait until information, videos, demos are released before we truly start forming an opinion.

I also think EA's lack of post-release support for the NCAA Basketball series leaves people with a lot of questions about NBA Live's future. When a game has a serious issues (freezing) and there's no response from the company, that leaves people with a bitter taste in their mouth, and rightfully so. I didn't buy the game and the freezing issue is why. If EA can't spend its resources to look into a serious problem then you have to question just how much effort is going into NBA Live when we've already seen a couple of the top programmers/designers leave.

So, to say this is all "marketing garbage" is a little exaggerated, imo. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I truly hope Live continues on and produces a solid game. It's just my faith in EA as a whole has been rattled based on what they have done the past couple of years.

[Pared]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

Live '08 and '09 were more similar to '10 than anyone is giving credit for.

Live '10 was a more fleshed out game. How? Take Live '09, add a bunch of 2k-like functions, and "2kers(?)" were "drawn." In record number, apparently.

There was so much more in Live '10 that had nothing to do with this move. Player art, Dynamic Season, throwbacks.... all things that people enjoyed the "upgrade" of.

But the stepping to the edge saying you're gonna jump reactions going on are very pre-mature.

[ehh]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

There was so much more in Live '10 that had nothing to do with this move. Player art, Dynamic Season, throwbacks.... all things that people enjoyed the "upgrade" of.

Those things helped but just go back and look through all the impression threads especially after Patch 2. Many people praise the controls, R-stick dribbling, layup solutions, OBC and playbooks as major game play improvements. Those set the game apart from Live 09 significantly. While yes, the "engine" or however people want to word it is similar to 09 (of course it is though) there were enough changes that made the user experience drastically better from 09 to 10.

What "2K-like" functions were added to Live 10? I don't see that at all, the difference between the two games is what drew people to Live. People played Live 10 this year because it did so many things well that 2K10 did poorly. If people wanted "2K-like" functions they would have just stayed with 2K10.

[Pared]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

No, they wouldn't have stayed with 2k10. The main gripe was player control, was it not? "I can't control my player in 2k that's why I like Live," is the slogan of choice.

Mike brought sizeups, layup control, shooting the ball off the glass, manual box outs, off ball control, off ball animations, etc. About the only unique thing was freestyle passing, which was phenomenal. People were then clamoring for EA to rip off 2k's post game next year since Live didn't have one. And that's just one example. If you've spent enough time in both forums you'd know that as it's pretty obvious. Plays were very similar to '09. I don't know how you can say you've played these games and not see that. They fleshed them out, which is to be expected in a new title the following year.

The genre doesn't need the two games being mirrors of each other. NCAA was doing the same exact thing when going head to head with CHoops. And playing Live this year you can see exactly how much more it was becoming just like 2k's product.

They need to find their own identity and relate to the NBA in their own way. To think they can't bring anyone new on board and possibly do that (much like 2k did slowly with their series) is silly.

[eDotd]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

One of the biggest gaming companies responding to a sulking ex-employee, (who has lost almost all respect from me since saying what he said publicly)

What did he say that made you lose respect?

[ehh]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

No, they wouldn't have stayed with 2k10. The main gripe was player control, was it not? "I can't control my player in 2k that's why I like Live," is the slogan of choice.

That was the biggest one for sure, along with the issue of spacing, defense and running plays.

Mike brought sizeups, layup control, shooting the ball off the glass, manual box outs, off ball control, off ball animations, etc. About the only unique thing was freestyle passing, which was phenomenal. People were then clamoring for EA to rip off 2k's post game next year since Live didn't have one. And that's just one example. If you've spent enough time in both forums you'd know that as it's pretty obvious.

I guess this is what you're considering "2K-like functions". To me they are just functions that make the game more life-like and more true to real-life basketball. These things belong to the game of basketball, not 2K simply because they did it first in a video game. The ideas are similar but the execution was different in Live compared to 2K. All of those new areas are better in Live than in 2K, obviously because most of those are a couple years old in 2K and feel dated. And who cares about what people are clamoring for? EA won't copy 2K's post game but I'm sure they will try to come up with their own method of giving the user more control in the post.

Plays were very similar to '09. I don't know how you can say you've played these games and not see that. They fleshed them out, which is to be expected in a new title the following year.

The execution was similar but I was referring to the addition of real plays. To someone like me that was a very cool addition though I know a majority of gamers do not care about playbooks.

The genre doesn't need the two games being mirrors of each other. NCAA was doing the same exact thing when going head to head with CHoops. And playing Live this year you can see exactly how much more it was becoming just like 2k's product.

They need to find their own identity and relate to the NBA in their own way. To think they can't bring anyone new on board and possibly do that (much like 2k did slowly with their series) is silly.

I don't agree with this, simply because Live is adding more user control does not mean it's becoming more like 2K's product. That's the natural progression of any sports game, it just so happens that Live was lagging far behind 2K for many years and are now catching up. It's not like Live is biting 2K's controls and how you execute various things (thank god too). Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, I dunno.

What do you propose EA does to create their own identity? Never add OBC just because 2K had it first? Same with layups, never add more in-depth user control in Live because 2K had the shotstick first? I'm not being an ***, just I'm curious as to what your ideas are.

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

No, they wouldn't have stayed with 2k10. The main gripe was player control, was it not? "I can't control my player in 2k that's why I like Live," is the slogan of choice.

Mike brought sizeups, layup control, shooting the ball off the glass, manual box outs, off ball control, off ball animations, etc. About the only unique thing was freestyle passing, which was phenomenal. People were then clamoring for EA to rip off 2k's post game next year since Live didn't have one. And that's just one example. If you've spent enough time in both forums you'd know that as it's pretty obvious. Plays were very similar to '09. I don't know how you can say you've played these games and not see that. They fleshed them out, which is to be expected in a new title the following year.

The genre doesn't need the two games being mirrors of each other. NCAA was doing the same exact thing when going head to head with CHoops. And playing Live this year you can see exactly how much more it was becoming just like 2k's product.

They need to find their own identity and relate to the NBA in their own way. To think they can't bring anyone new on board and possibly do that (much like 2k did slowly with their series) is silly.

I'm gonna agree and disagree at the same time. There are some fundimental core things that make a game a great "sim" experience. Proper pacing is key, as well as strict adherence to a sports rules and feel. There is no interpretation to be made. So, if both games are striving to be authentic experiences, there will inevitably be some aspects of the game that mirror the other game. Sure you can have different control schemes, but you should never have different styles. If you wanna do that, make a game like the Bigs, Blitz or Street series.

Madden was notorious for always going too far in one direction or the other, with a undo weighting place on one side of the ball or the other. This is why NFL2k ended up getting the nod as being the better game. It was more stable in it's pursuit of purity. It wasn't perfect but it was true to it's core values. Ditto with NBA2k. Now one could argue that EA has been far more successful at it's strategy of appealing to mass-market mentality than 2k has been in it's approach. But. Fifa and the NHL series have gone the way of trying to out-authentic their competitors, and have done so to great success. NBA Live appeared to have taken this course as well, much to my delight. Now, we sit here with talk of "changing directions." Why? Just because the sales weren't there, doesn't mean it wasn't working. The game had a clear direction and had a killer gameplay foundation.Now? Who knows.

I'll be the first to admit that Fifa, my most beloved game, isn't totally "sim." There are a whole lot of skill moves that don't get performed in real play like they can be in Fifa. But there's a pursuit of what makes soccer feel like soccer. I'm finding the same with PES now (although it is even more "sim"). Now if the NBA Live team can keep the level of control (meaning don't change the control scheme) and get that fun feel that I get out of Fifa, cool. But the reason I left Live in the first place was that it was too offensive in nature. It was trying to skirt the line where it was almost a NBA Jam type game. If the disagreement was that the game needs to relax the D and be more "fun" I think they are lost. The game was headed in the right direction, that of an NBA experience. The "authentic" games are leading the way, and the demographic that are buying the games are us. The Dad, not the kid. So build us games, and make Wii and iPhone games for Mommy and the kids.

P.S. I always though it kind of funny that Ian and Co. never got the whole allure of 2k as they were pursuing it last year. They come up with a huge new presentation upgrade, which is what they thought would be the great placebo,when what we really wanted was things like the blocking AI. Seems to be a problem with the EA mindset. They want pretty and flashy, we want great gameplay, covered in pretty and flashy..... "Back of the Box" rules!

[Pared]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

Here's the thing... everything that was heralded in Live as a wonderful addition this year was already in 2k's game. The year that a 2k developer has say, Live's game gets what 2k already had, in a different manner.

Ultimately, it's basketball. These things need to be in there. Just like you said. In what way does Mike's departure kill off any hope that EA's game can't find their own identity while providing that?

Again, the developers have spent a year and a half looking at how a developer from 2k thinks and goes about implementing things. You don't think they can use that with their own experience down the line?

Ultimately the suits will dictate what direction the game goes in, but just because they aren't here on the forums or in an article on IGN saying, "Hey guys, we know what you want and we're giving it to you," doesn't mean the game is going to be complete trash. It's just not the 100% hardcore sim a small group of you think this game should be.

A large group of us were able to enjoy NBA Live '05 back in the day. There's absolutely no reason EA can't stylize their product and get back there.

What should I think EA do? Keep adding on that flash that is drawing people over to 2k. Live '10 became stale after a while. Animations, culture and attention to details provide a lot for the gamer. Push authenticity and keep the positives that have their gameplay engine ahead of their competition. They tried to do that this year but failed. Marketing helps too. This was the first year where it seems like 2k marketed a LOT more than EA did in the mainstream media. Live '09 was marketed a lot more than '10. "DNA? That's bananas, B." Giving people youtube videos is nice and all because their bored. They aren't going to sell a game. They just help.

And who knows - EA may just stumble upon that thing that brings people around. The Shot stick is the SINGLE thing that brought 2k into the forefront for a lot of gamers. Live finds something like that and keeps pushing, you never know where they will be in 3 years.

People are just reading the comments how they want to. The same exact way they did when it was said 2k's engine couldn't evolve because it was based on the previous generation's code... Nothing is set in stone.

[Pared]

Re: Mike Wang Has Left EA Canada and the NBA Live Development Team

I'll be the first to admit that Fifa, my most beloved game, isn't totally "sim." There are a whole lot of skill moves that don't get performed in real play like they can be in Fifa. But there's a pursuit of what makes soccer feel like soccer. I'm finding the same with PES now (although it is even more "sim"). Now if the NBA Live team can keep the level of control (meaning don't change the control scheme) and get that fun feel that I get out of Fifa, cool. But the reason I left Live in the first place was that it was too offensive in nature. It was trying to skirt the line where it was almost a NBA Jam type game. If the disagreement was that the game needs to relax the D and be more "fun" I think they are lost. The game was headed in the right direction, that of an NBA experience. The "authentic" games are leading the way, and the demographic that are buying the games are us. The Dad, not the kid. So build us games, and make Wii and iPhone games for Mommy and the kids.

You can't keep comparing this to NHL and FIFA. In both instances, their competition (NHL 2k and PES) faltered INCREDIBLY. The games were a shell of their former selves. People stopped looking at them as being the top of their class. NBA 2k and NBA Live had no such path.

As an asie, if you really look at FIFA, they basically copied EVERYTHING from PES, right down to the the controls. NHL found their "thing" through their own shot stick and Be a Pro online.

Every time EA tried to do this with Live, 2k countered with something similar. It's not the same scenario when your competitor is actually evolving.