Suction, Control, and Animations

[WTF]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

But that doesn't mean we aren't making an authentic simulation game. It just means we didn't make it perfect. And perfection is a pretty tall order.

It's even more of a tall order when you scrap the base of your game every 2-3 years because "it's not working". The reason it's not working, and the reason that the meta scores aren't very high, are because of this very same reason.

How many times has 2k rebooted since the next gen era? Have they? Or have they went through and added to a very good product? Do they introduce something, and decide that after a year, or two years, that it's time to go a different direction, or do they have a concrete idea, and implement and tweak it for years down the line.

How many sales do you expect to garner if you're constantly taking 1 step forward, and 2-3 steps back? You're always going to be behind if you don't decide "this is what we want, we're going to give it our all".

If you all ride this new control scheme for 3 years or better, then good for you. I'm glad that EA will have finally stuck with something. Maybe in 3 years, we will have a decent game with a full set of features and the core basketball basics in place, instead of marketing on one thing that you've revamped, and ignoring the things that aren't in.

If EA would have stuck with what they had after last year, added a few things here and there, tweaked the gameplay a little bit... who's to say that you wouldn't have a 90% score on meta? But you'll never know, because it's an everchanging ship at EA, always changing the course.

Maybe I'm just upset because for once last year I saw a title that actually had some merit to it. But watching these videos, it seems like things have changed quite a bit.

Who am I though? The gamer that EA doesn't need apparently, the one who has bought their products from the minute I started mowing grass at a young age to buy them, to the man I am now with my own money.

Best of luck to you achieving your sales records and your 90+ metacritic score...

[bls]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

It's even more of a tall order when you scrap the base of your game every 2-3 years because "it's not working". The reason it's not working, and the reason that the meta scores aren't very high, are because of this very same reason.

How many times has 2k rebooted since the next gen era? Have they? Or have they went through and added to a very good product? Do they introduce something, and decide that after a year, or two years, that it's time to go a different direction, or do they have a concrete idea, and implement and tweak it for years down the line.

How many sales do you expect to garner if you're constantly taking 1 step forward, and 2-3 steps back? You're always going to be behind if you don't decide "this is what we want, we're going to give it our all".

If you all ride this new control scheme for 3 years or better, then good for you. I'm glad that EA will have finally stuck with something. Maybe in 3 years, we will have a decent game with a full set of features and the core basketball basics in place, instead of marketing on one thing that you've revamped, and ignoring the things that aren't in.

If EA would have stuck with what they had after last year, added a few things here and there, tweaked the gameplay a little bit... who's to say that you wouldn't have a 90% score on meta? But you'll never know, because it's an everchanging ship at EA, always changing the course.

Maybe I'm just upset because for once last year I saw a title that actually had some merit to it. But watching these videos, it seems like things have changed quite a bit.

Who am I though? The gamer that EA doesn't need apparently, the one who has bought their products from the minute I started mowing grass at a young age to buy them, to the man I am now with my own money.

Best of luck to you achieving your sales records and your 90+ metacritic score...

I definitely agree with what you just stated and 23 as well. Had a very good foundation with Live 09 as well IMO, Live 10 as well. Somebody at EA needs to make up their mind and stick with a foundation.

[tybud]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

I've always been more interested in the video games side of these games then the basketball side. While I love great animations, I have to say I love little things like the timing of a jumper being completely under your control even more.

Or when playing defense is entirely up to you, so if the guy is trying to drive past you its on the user to defend him the whole way. So if you know he's faster then you then you know you have to give him room so that you can better react to what he may do. This may leave you susceptible to easy jumpers for a player that understands how to shoot but like in real life its a calculated risk.
I even like the little subtle things like a defensive hop feature that can be used to try and bail yourself out when a guy is almost past you. Its these little minute things that are interesting to me.

And if I have to sacrifice a certain level of polish on animations that's fine with me. I don't want the game to look completely generic I DO want the NBA players to be represented well don't get me wrong, but its little things like those above that really excite me.

For example that steal on Kaman in the post in the LAC vs NOH vid was awesome to me (at 1:53). Because you as the defender can actually set little things up like that up. You can make sure that your help is on that side of the court just for situations like that. So if the offensive player tries to spin towards help you can make that gamble and go for the steal.

And the thing that makes it extremely cool is the fact that ball is "live" so its up for grabs to any defender near it. So you as the defender don't have to worry about it not fitting into some motion captured sequence you just go for it and hope it works out. Did the animation look great maybe but the execution of it was beautiful imo.

I even like plays like the David West dunk (at 0:27). Is the spin off move that simple NO its usually much more physical and doesn't lead to as easy of finish. But I did like how it kind of simulates that "I'm on an island" feeling Kobe and other great post players give guys. You have to react correct or your getting scored on simple as that.

And I really like those types of situations when we have the tools to defend against it like the defensive hop or to bring over help from the weakside. Now I'm not saying none of this is possible in any other bball games but I like the way EA is going about doing it. They are making it into more of videogame where you have figure out what button combos you have to use to be effective. That type of gameplay also leads to videogames where almost every situation can have its own cat and mouse mini game going on every play.

Its not much to most people I guess but that extra level of thinking has always interested me. So things like the "live" ball and user controlled shooting bring that out in certain areas. And RTP can make it possible in the air too so it doesn't stop once we leave the ground. We are not stuck in the air waiting we can make further adjustments on both offense and defense.

The idea of stuff like this going on every play excites me obviously it comes down to execution of course (no extreme exploits) but the fact that its even a goal for this dev team is great to me. For me a game like Elite if its done well will keep me playing for a while because there will always be something I can learn. I'll have to master everything on offense and defense in order to be the most effective in every situation. Whether I'm running with worst team or the best team on the game.

Edit:
Sorry for the long post just really hit me when I read that, its goals like the ones rEAnimator has for this series that excite me lol!

basically elite is a very deliberate basketball game, a game of thinking and not having the game play you, you play it and thats something ive been wanting in a basketball video game for ever. yeah it has its ugly moments and im not trying to excuse that fact, but when you can control the out come of a game based on your actual input on the game im good with that because thats why i play these games to recreate what i see on tv. im not looking for a game to make decisions for me based on what the game adds up. i want all of the control, the more i think about the direction of ea the more im in agreement with what their doing, and the reason for that is simple if i dont end up liking this new way of basketball gameing than i could always go back to that other game.

[phant030]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

I saw somewhere, stepsix stated you could go to the Live control option instead of the Elite one. There's the problem, if i put my control scheme back to Live 10, then there will be no other 'real' improvements to the game.

[JerseySuave4]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

It's even more of a tall order when you scrap the base of your game every 2-3 years because "it's not working". The reason it's not working, and the reason that the meta scores aren't very high, are because of this very same reason.

How many times has 2k rebooted since the next gen era? Have they? Or have they went through and added to a very good product? Do they introduce something, and decide that after a year, or two years, that it's time to go a different direction, or do they have a concrete idea, and implement and tweak it for years down the line.

How many sales do you expect to garner if you're constantly taking 1 step forward, and 2-3 steps back? You're always going to be behind if you don't decide "this is what we want, we're going to give it our all".

If you all ride this new control scheme for 3 years or better, then good for you. I'm glad that EA will have finally stuck with something. Maybe in 3 years, we will have a decent game with a full set of features and the core basketball basics in place, instead of marketing on one thing that you've revamped, and ignoring the things that aren't in.

If EA would have stuck with what they had after last year, added a few things here and there, tweaked the gameplay a little bit... who's to say that you wouldn't have a 90% score on meta? But you'll never know, because it's an everchanging ship at EA, always changing the course.

Maybe I'm just upset because for once last year I saw a title that actually had some merit to it. But watching these videos, it seems like things have changed quite a bit.

Who am I though? The gamer that EA doesn't need apparently, the one who has bought their products from the minute I started mowing grass at a young age to buy them, to the man I am now with my own money.

Best of luck to you achieving your sales records and your 90+ metacritic score...

well said, and i go back to the question i asked earlier... if the sales of this years game arent good are they just going to scrap this 3 year plan and start over or actually ride out the 3 year plan? I have a big problem with paying full price for a game that is year 1 of a 3 year plan.

[Tha_Kid]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

I saw somewhere, stepsix stated you could go to the Live control option instead of the Elite one. There's the problem, if i put my control scheme back to Live 10, then there will be no other 'real' improvements to the game.

How so?

No sense of physicality in the paint or on the perimeter. The double team system. Limited & generic post game. The suction collisions in the paint. The whole interception/steal system. Taking charges. The blocking and rebounding system. Loose ball retrieval. CPU AI that was lackluster and didn't run sets. Players not playing like themselves. Shooting that many people complained felt scripted. Lack of modes. Stale commentary & presentation.

Look at Czar's 2k10/Live10 Battleground. Many of these areas are addressed in Elite.

[tybud]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

EDITED: Yeah we get it Jano in every post you've written to contradict everyone else opinion. You and about 4 other people out of the 70 plus who are complaining believe that RTP is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the developers are doing a great (pat on the back) job.

You played the game and we can respect your opinions! But don't overlook what has been sacrificed slashed removed. For time spent on things that were not the issue in the beginning. That is all the rest of us are saying!

(When facts are pointing to 1 thing and 1 thing only....Controls were not the issue. RTP used towards full control, more control, complete control, etc. Anything that has to do with control, and control, and control.) Any to do with controls was a waste of development time...because they were fine.

Graphics, Animations (and the lack of)(correct ones), etc were issues! Now we have less of them. That's sad!!!

Presentation (replays, cutscenes, commentary that blends, etc) lacking still. Even with 3 man it's lacking. ESPN License or not, it's not used like a real broadcast.

Lack of player editing and customizations and so forth!

And who knows what other things are missing, we already know there are no injuries. (is that basketball) no it's arcade basketball.

They pointed out, they are targeting people who are not basketball people, to get them to play basketball games. So I guess us, who have a real respect for the flow, look, movement of the game are alienated this year. I feel like that is a disrespect for a guy who has bought every EA title since Sega Genesis! (And yes I still have every damn title) You don't believe me I'll make a youtube video of every last one of them)

Also for my fam, Playmakers, Tomba, 23 (KDRE), Da_Czar etc. Who have quirked these games apart, season after season with sliders, tweaks, etc. To keep them playable even at their worsed times. We are tired of it! It's been 5 years! None of our true wishlist have been answered!

You enjoy your new control scheme, because that's all it is, the game looks like blahhhhh! Even the Arenas are terrible and not authentic! EA Sports has always focused on authentic touches like that, and it's even lacking. I remember Live 06 was the first game to even get Madison Square Garden right....and no one likes the Knicks

dude its about time to be responsible for your own actions and not try and tell the next man how they should feel about something its you who bought the game year after year so you have a blame in ea doing the things that they do with this game if we didnt buy the trash that they put out every year than maybe that would listen a alittle more and fix the game. like now their on the boards pretty much fielding complaints which doesnt mean much because we never get change. there is no conceivable way that you have a crew of people that dont understand how real basketball is played from end to end. they do things the way that want to do them and thats that. so if you have a person that still likes the game for what is there is nothing wrong with because that person too pretty much understands who ea is and what ea is all about. its time for all of us including myself to man up and stop crying about whats not good because ea is not listen to to make changes there listening to you tokeep a false line of communication open, which keeps us some hope off change which will never happen until their forced to do so. im out dog.
all i can say is keep it real and keep it movin, thats something that ea should start working under

[loadleft]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

basically elite is a very deliberate basketball game, a game of thinking and not having the game play you, you play it and thats something ive been wanting in a basketball video game for ever. yeah it has its ugly moments and im not trying to excuse that fact, but when you can control the out come of a game based on your actual input on the game im good with that because thats why i play these games to recreate what i see on tv. im not looking for a game to make decisions for me based on what the game adds up. i want all of the control, the more i think about the direction of ea the more im in agreement with what their doing, and the reason for that is simple if i dont end up liking this new way of basketball gameing than i could always go back to that other game.

I think you guys are going to be surprised, the ones of you that's looking for this cerebral experience that is. I haven't heard of much improvement in terms of AI or team individuality so I am expecting a repeat of Live 10 in that department. If that suited you fine, but I got tired of the same game and same challenge from ever team. The challenge of beating the Clippers was exactly the same as beating the Celtics. I can tell you the plan now: Start off hot, go through several runs back and forth, then towards the end the CPU makes an unbelievable effort to take the game. All that happens while my shot inexplicably come and goes.

From what I read in rEAnimator responses EA has decided to go after guys that simply like playing video games. He's right there's nothing wrong with that, and it actually full explains the control scheme change to me. Video game guys however, tend to like games that they can show their stick skills, like fighting games for example. A simple intuitive control scheme like Live's usually wouldn't appeal to that crowd because their's no separation of players based on stick skill it would have to be basketball IQ. Apparently with this new scheme EA is trying to straddle the line of B-Ball IQ and stick skill.

To me the push for video gamers explains pretty much all the priorities they set and didn't set, and I don't know how it ultimately will play out but I can fully agree it definitely sets them apart from 2K (at least what I know about them) if that's what they were shooting for. I hope when I play the demo that I see enough basketball remaining that I still like the game but knowing what I know now I am expecting even less than I started out expecting. I was really hoping that since they finally figured out how to make each game challenging last year they'd take it a step further and more accurately reflect the individual challenges of each team instead the one overall challenge every team had last year. I think I can hang that up now so I am running out of things to look forward to in this game. I've lost: in-game injuries, shortened seasons, player/team individualities, I'm not sure yet but I have heard no mention of more or better camera angles, and so I am running out buy worthy features because as most know by now, I am not a stick skills guy. BUT I AM HOPEFUL, LOL

[stepsix]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

@convince - there has been user cpu footage posted - detroit oklahoma, oklahoma is cpu controlled...

Re: sales driven direction, live 10 was the culmination of building on the engine since 07, the result of which if we're going off sales driven design, was not driving sales in the Live series' direction. 07 was built to utilise next gen hardware, but lacked the next gen experience & perspective that EA now has (not to mention a massive undertaking in one year, larger than 10 -> Elite). Elite definitely has the gamer in mind (control etc etc), but is definitely not attempting to alienate its fan base in the process.

I've been part of the series since 06, and trust me, none of you have put in as much time in Live as I have, but I plugged live 10 on thursday, and I couldn't get through a half. I enjoyed Live 10 quite a bit and played online for quite a while after it was released, but the 'visual' quality does not come close to the satisfaction of the gameplay in Elite. That being said, visuals WILL become a focus as this game progresses.

I'm not in marketing by any means, and I'm as tired of saying it as you are of hearing it, but if you give the demo enough time to unlearn previous control schemes, personally I think you can see past some of the things you guys are accustomed to in a bball series.

[loadleft]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

@convince - there has been user cpu footage posted - detroit oklahoma, oklahoma is cpu controlled...

Re: sales driven direction, live 10 was the culmination of building on the engine since 07, the result of which if we're going off sales driven design, was not driving sales in the Live series' direction. 07 was built to utilise next gen hardware, but lacked the next gen experience & perspective that EA now has (not to mention a massive undertaking in one year, larger than 10 -> Elite). Elite definitely has the gamer in mind (control etc etc), but is definitely not attempting to alienate its fan base in the process.

I've been part of the series since 06, and trust me, none of you have put in as much time in Live as I have, but I plugged live 10 on thursday, and I couldn't get through a half. I enjoyed Live 10 quite a bit and played online for quite a while after it was released, but the 'visual' quality does not come close to the satisfaction of the gameplay in Elite. That being said, visuals WILL become a focus as this game progresses.

I'm not in marketing by any means, and I'm as tired of saying it as you are of hearing it, but if you give the demo enough time to unlearn previous control schemes, personally I think you can see past some of the things you guys are accustomed to in a bball series.

I'll accept that and I hope you are right. My gut tells me to go ahead and switch now so I can get accustomed to the gameplay of 2K by the time the new game comes out, however I am going to try to hold out at least until the demo so that I can "feel" Elite and hope it's enough. Also I too can not complete Live 10 anymore and I haven't even felt Elite. That's one of the things that scares me. If Elite has the same AI, what happens when the newness of the controls and the feeling wears off? Will I be playing a better controlled version of the same old Live 10 w/a slightly worst appearance?

[tybud]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

@convince - there has been user cpu footage posted - detroit oklahoma, oklahoma is cpu controlled...

Re: sales driven direction, live 10 was the culmination of building on the engine since 07, the result of which if we're going off sales driven design, was not driving sales in the Live series' direction. 07 was built to utilise next gen hardware, but lacked the next gen experience & perspective that EA now has (not to mention a massive undertaking in one year, larger than 10 -> Elite). Elite definitely has the gamer in mind (control etc etc), but is definitely not attempting to alienate its fan base in the process.

I've been part of the series since 06, and trust me, none of you have put in as much time in Live as I have, but I plugged live 10 on thursday, and I couldn't get through a half. I enjoyed Live 10 quite a bit and played online for quite a while after it was released, but the 'visual' quality does not come close to the satisfaction of the gameplay in Elite. That being said, visuals WILL become a focus as this game progresses.

I'm not in marketing by any means, and I'm as tired of saying it as you are of hearing it, but if you give the demo enough time to unlearn previous control schemes, personally I think you can see past some of the things you guys are accustomed to in a bball series.

stepsix what makes this game an upgrade from live 10 other than the new control scheme and what would make me as gamer want to continue playing the game after the new control scheme becomes second nature.

[mrprice33]

You haven't seen the 10 threads talking about physics and canned animations? This could be the biggest upgrade.

stepsix what makes this game an upgrade from live 10 other than the new control scheme and what would make me as gamer want to continue playing the game after the new control scheme becomes second nature.

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

[stepsix]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

@ loadleft - please see my response to playmakers in the new orleans thread.

@tybud - as I said earlier in this thread, its not the control scheme that keeps you copming back for more, it's the level of control that makes it good. When you lose, it's on you.

If you will, a non-sports analogy: when playing through God of War, you fight your way to a boss, using combos and various tactics. When you get to the boss, you press a button and perform an action. If you were to play that game 5 times, I think the bosses lose their visual appeal after the first couple times through, but the journey to get to them changes every time you play it.

[loadleft]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

@ loadleft - please see my response to playmakers in the new orleans thread.

@tybud - as I said earlier in this thread, its not the control scheme that keeps you copming back for more, it's the level of control that makes it good. When you lose, it's on you.

If you will, a non-sports analogy: when playing through God of War, you fight your way to a boss, using combos and various tactics. When you get to the boss, you press a button and perform an action. If you were to play that game 5 times, I think the bosses lose their visual appeal after the first couple times through, but the journey to get to them changes every time you play it.

I read your response to PM and it doesn't completely answer my question. Are you saying that the Real AI and player tendencies are enough this year to make each team play to it's strengths and differently from each other because of personnel? If I am playing the Timberwolves w/virtually no stars will I still see guys relentlessly attacking me off the dribble as if they're stars or is that if the player isn't good enough/rated highly enough he won't do those things? It was very frustrating watching Omri Casspi play exactly like Carmelo Anthony and pose the exact same defensive challenge last year, I am hoping that's a thing of the past!

[stepsix]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

The goal of that competely new layer was to both provide a more organic means for the cpu to utilise all of the control afforded the user this year, as well as differentiate players.

Melo has sequences that only he will perform (I can't say the same for anyone on the twolves lol). We also put emphasis on finishing plays, and executing more to the tempo of your team in terms of the percentages of set, quick & transition type plays a team runs.