Suction, Control, and Animations

[2kfanatic]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

Open to interpretation......my intention was going for a "good luck with that" type of thing

Yeah good luck with that lol.

[bigballa21]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

Yeah good luck with that lol.

that was a good one

[Epiffani]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

The more and more I read between the lines of the rhetoric and the selling points of "Elite", the more I believe that this game was built around a theme of being anti-"the other game", which explains a lot of the decisions that were made that have flustered so many people. That isn't a bad strategy per say, quite the opposite even, but when your primary and secondary focuses are "control" and "real time physics", and then other portions of the game have admittedly stayed the same, haven't been addressed (some after years upon years of user feedback), or even regressed in some fashion, then that's when people are going to question putting majority of your eggs in "two baskets" so to speak. When I see Metacritic being brought up by people directly involved with this game, it's sort of a head scratcher and a revelation at the same time (don't forget in the words of Littman, they are competing with other games outside the genre because of Metacritic, not with the "other" game within the same genre.)

I would say that control has been one of the things that has been stopping the "other" game from getting higher scores (just read the reviews), but I wouldn't say the same thing about this series. I could have came up with at least 10 other more pressing issues that this game has other than the way that it controlled in the past IMO, but I guess EA decided to turn a strength into even more of a strength this year even though in this Youtube, uploading every subtle indiscretion social contact, that is something that could work against this game (it actually already started when the first vids were uploaded). In fact, I don't think the controls (or RTP) will get this game any closer to a "90" this year with all of the other things that have apparently took a hit or stayed the same. People like to refer as this year as a year where the ground work is being laid, and even though this is about the 5th time I've heard that same exact thing on this gen of consoles for this series, that's okay to have that mindset.

Just know that a lot of the critics and fans will not be playing and judging the game with the same outlook (I know I won't). Just to give a brief example with BB (a brand new game into the sports gaming genre, 1st installment, and the game that is responsible for a lot of the hoopla around real time physics), they sent a letter to each reviewer of a major website and major publications stating how what they were attempting and able to accomplish with their real time physics engine is something that had never been attempted before, and that many people said wasn't possible with the current hardware. Well, look at the ranking that game has on metacritic, and look at some of the reasons why it was given some of the scores it received. Again, the point is not everyone will plight with a game no what innovation(s) is being touted.

With the "real time physics." When I first heard about this aspect being introduced to this game, I thought that this series was finally addressing the animations both in look and in number, but as I continually seen the "RTP's" at work in different videos, and short clips, it was obvious to me that this isn't what I thought it would be at least for this year, and in combination with the total control, the game actually looks, moves, and animates worse than last year's game in many respects. I don't have the best eyesight, but the fact that I have to "feel" this game in order to really understand "what's going on", is really a tough sell. Yes I want good controls, but I also want it to look the part of basketball as well, and I'm not one of the people whose going to choose either or because they both are important to me.

[jtdribbles25]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

Of course not everybody will like this control set up, just like not everybody liked FN4s control set up.

All I've been saying is this: if they deliver on the promise of the control scheme and the physics (which still very much is in question) then this game will be a GREAT building block for the future of not only this series, but for basketball games in general. Some people are openly rooting against them, and I don't know how that benefits anyone. Theoretically RTP and true 1-1 controls are better than what we've had before. If they get a chance to fulfill the potential of this new design philosophy, it makes things better for us, as we will get better games. Maybe not this year, but it sets the stage for the future. People complain all the time about how there's no innovation in sports gaming, how everything is so stagnant compared to other genres, but it seems to me like every time a developer takes a chance on a sports game, people whine and complain that things are different than they used to be. It's damaging to the industry. If the game winds up sucking, who cares, except for the people who might lose their jobs over it? There is an alternative game that does things the way they've been done before, and any consumer has the option to purchase that game, if they choose. Nobody is pulling the wool over anybody's eyes, nobody is hiding anything on EA's side. There is a demo coming out that will allow everybody to get a chance to try the game, and we have received a good amount of prerelease information in the form of Q&As and videos. You're not being tricked or deceived in any way. If a consumer decides that EA didn't do enough to get their dollars this year, that's entirely their decision and choice. People around here are acting like the effort wasn't worth it because the 20 minutes of gameplay we have seen (from the first effort, mind you) didn't *look* like it was up to snuff. However, we haven't actually played it yet, nor have we seen whatever might be coming down the road. Wait three years to buy it, I don't care. I'm waiting for the demo to make my decision (much like last year), and if I like it, I'll buy it. If not, I won't, and I'll go to ToG. Or, I'll buy both. It's not *that* serious.

I don't get the end of the world mentality with this either. buy it or don't. Im just glad there seems to be an alternative that will suit most people. I know that they are offering an alternative control scheme as well, and maybe that'll help. idk.

I remember back when the other game had made the next gen jump and was criticized for not innovating and just sorta porting over. People claim to want change, but don't seem to actually be willing to embrace it.

[2kfanatic]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

Well ever since ELITE introduced us to RTP and ever since the other game's control responsiveness became really really bad, the standards for basketball games changed or evolved.

[2kfanatic]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

I don't get the end of the world mentality with this either. buy it or don't. Im just glad there seems to be an alternative that will suit most people. I know that they are offering an alternative control scheme as well, and maybe that'll help. idk.

I remember back when the other game had made the next gen jump and was criticized for not innovating and just sorta porting over. People claim to want change, but don't seem to actually be willing to embrace it.

The thing is live's innovation at that time is about the footplanting and we can all remember how it went for live at 2007. To this day footplanting is still not the well implemented in live.

[Jano]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

We still think the basketball side is important, but we feel the video game side has been neglected over the years and needs a serious investment.

If we do a good job with this, we may end up bringing sports gamers who are not basketball fans in to play Elite. If we do that, then they will learn more about the nuances of the sport and may become basketball fans as well.

I've always been more interested in the video games side of these games then the basketball side. While I love great animations, I have to say I love little things like the timing of a jumper being completely under your control even more.

Or when playing defense is entirely up to you, so if the guy is trying to drive past you its on the user to defend him the whole way. So if you know he's faster then you then you know you have to give him room so that you can better react to what he may do. This may leave you susceptible to easy jumpers for a player that understands how to shoot but like in real life its a calculated risk.

I even like the little subtle things like a defensive hop feature that can be used to try and bail yourself out when a guy is almost past you. Its these little minute things that are interesting to me.

And if I have to sacrifice a certain level of polish on animations that's fine with me. I don't want the game to look completely generic I DO want the NBA players to be represented well don't get me wrong, but its little things like those above that really excite me.

For example that steal on Kaman in the post in the LAC vs NOH vid was awesome to me (at 1:53). Because you as the defender can actually set little things up like that up. You can make sure that your help is on that side of the court just for situations like that. So if the offensive player tries to spin towards help you can make that gamble and go for the steal.

And the thing that makes it extremely cool is the fact that ball is "live" so its up for grabs to any defender near it. So you as the defender don't have to worry about it not fitting into some motion captured sequence you just go for it and hope it works out. Did the animation look great maybe but the execution of it was beautiful imo.

I even like plays like the David West dunk (at 0:27). Is the spin off move that simple NO its usually much more physical and doesn't lead to as easy of finish. But I did like how it kind of simulates that "I'm on an island" feeling Kobe and other great post players give guys. You have to react correct or your getting scored on simple as that.

And I really like those types of situations when we have the tools to defend against it like the defensive hop or to bring over help from the weakside. Now I'm not saying none of this is possible in any other bball games but I like the way EA is going about doing it. They are making it into more of videogame where you have figure out what button combos you have to use to be effective. That type of gameplay also leads to videogames where almost every situation can have its own cat and mouse mini game going on every play.

Its not much to most people I guess but that extra level of thinking has always interested me. So things like the "live" ball and user controlled shooting bring that out in certain areas. And RTP can make it possible in the air too so it doesn't stop once we leave the ground. We are not stuck in the air waiting we can make further adjustments on both offense and defense.

The idea of stuff like this going on every play excites me obviously it comes down to execution of course (no extreme exploits) but the fact that its even a goal for this dev team is great to me. For me a game like Elite if its done well will keep me playing for a while because there will always be something I can learn. I'll have to master everything on offense and defense in order to be the most effective in every situation. Whether I'm running with worst team or the best team on the game.

Edit:
Sorry for the long post just really hit me when I read that, its goals like the ones rEAnimator has for this series that excite me lol!

[kwas676]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

The thing is live's innovation at that time is about the footplanting and we can all remember how it went for live at 2007. To this day footplanting is still not the well implemented in live.

I dont know what footplanting tech there using now but its surely not the one they used in 09 and 08, cause footplanting those years where perfect of course like usual animations where ugly, you never saw players slide once like they do in 10 and now elite.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

This is an awesome discussion and drives to the heart of why we chose this direction (imho).

You're right, the reviewers review games as both a pure basketball experience and as a video game. Some take more of the basketball side, and some take more of the video game side.

The average opinion is reflected in the metacritic rating.

And the average amongst consumers is measured in sales.

We still think the basketball side is important, but we feel the video game side has been neglected over the years and needs a serious investment.

If we do a good job with this, we may end up bringing sports gamers who are not basketball fans in to play Elite. If we do that, then they will learn more about the nuances of the sport and may become basketball fans as well.

That's when we know we've made the best game we can.

When basketball fans love it, and non basketball fans try it out and become basketball fans because of how fun the gameplay is.

I just hope you are taking in sells with good perspective especially seeing how the best NBA Live games of this gen have sold the least.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

The more and more I read between the lines of the rhetoric and the selling points of "Elite", the more I believe that this game was built around a theme of being anti-"the other game", which explains a lot of the decisions that were made that have flustered so many people. That isn't a bad strategy per say, quite the opposite even, but when your primary and secondary focuses are "control" and "real time physics", and then other portions of the game have admittedly stayed the same, haven't been addressed (some after years upon years of user feedback), or even regressed in some fashion, then that's when people are going to question putting majority of your eggs in "two baskets" so to speak. When I see Metacritic being brought up by people directly involved with this game, it's sort of a head scratcher and a revelation at the same time (don't forget in the words of Littman, they are competing with other games outside the genre because of Metacritic, not with the "other" game within the same genre.)

I would say that control has been one of the things that has been stopping the "other" game from getting higher scores (just read the reviews), but I wouldn't say the same thing about this series. I could have came up with at least 10 other more pressing issues that this game has other than the way that it controlled in the past IMO, but I guess EA decided to turn a strength into even more of a strength this year even though in this Youtube, uploading every subtle indiscretion social contact, that is something that could work against this game (it actually already started when the first vids were uploaded). In fact, I don't think the controls (or RTP) will get this game any closer to a "90" this year with all of the other things that have apparently took a hit or stayed the same. People like to refer as this year as a year where the ground work is being laid, and even though this is about the 5th time I've heard that same exact thing on this gen of consoles for this series, that's okay to have that mindset.

Just know that a lot of the critics and fans will not be playing and judging the game with the same outlook (I know I won't). Just to give a brief example with BB (a brand new game into the sports gaming genre, 1st installment, and the game that is responsible for a lot of the hoopla around real time physics), they sent a letter to each reviewer of a major website and major publications stating how what they were attempting and able to accomplish with their real time physics engine is something that had never been attempted before, and that many people said wasn't possible with the current hardware. Well, look at the ranking that game has on metacritic, and look at some of the reasons why it was given some of the scores it received. Again, the point is not everyone will plight with a game no what innovation(s) is being touted.

With the "real time physics." When I first heard about this aspect being introduced to this game, I thought that this series was finally addressing the animations both in look and in number, but as I continually seen the "RTP's" at work in different videos, and short clips, it was obvious to me that this isn't what I thought it would be at least for this year, and in combination with the total control, the game actually looks, moves, and animates worse than last year's game in many respects. I don't have the best eyesight, but the fact that I have to "feel" this game in order to really understand "what's going on", is really a tough sell. Yes I want good controls, but I also want it to look the part of basketball as well, and I'm not one of the people whose going to choose either or because they both are important to me.

It does seem like this is the case especially after watching that video of NBA players touting the controls. My problem with this strategy is that you need just go back to the last college hoops game to see that they know how to produce a game with crisp controls and unobtrusive animations. Its not wise to bank on an opponents malady. You should always assume your comp is going to bring it strong.

[Behindshadows]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

EDITED: Yeah we get it Jano in every post you've written to contradict everyone else opinion. You and about 4 other people out of the 70 plus who are complaining believe that RTP is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the developers are doing a great (pat on the back) job.

You played the game and we can respect your opinions! But don't overlook what has been sacrificed slashed removed. For time spent on things that were not the issue in the beginning. That is all the rest of us are saying!

(When facts are pointing to 1 thing and 1 thing only....Controls were not the issue. RTP used towards full control, more control, complete control, etc. Anything that has to do with control, and control, and control.) Any to do with controls was a waste of development time...because they were fine.

Graphics, Animations (and the lack of)(correct ones), etc were issues! Now we have less of them. That's sad!!!

Presentation (replays, cutscenes, commentary that blends, etc) lacking still. Even with 3 man it's lacking. ESPN License or not, it's not used like a real broadcast.

Lack of player editing and customizations and so forth!

And who knows what other things are missing, we already know there are no injuries. (is that basketball) no it's arcade basketball.

They pointed out, they are targeting people who are not basketball people, to get them to play basketball games. So I guess us, who have a real respect for the flow, look, movement of the game are alienated this year. I feel like that is a disrespect for a guy who has bought every EA title since Sega Genesis! (And yes I still have every damn title) You don't believe me I'll make a youtube video of every last one of them)

Also for my fam, Playmakers, Tomba, 23 (KDRE), Da_Czar etc. Who have quirked these games apart, season after season with sliders, tweaks, etc. To keep them playable even at their worsed times. We are tired of it! It's been 5 years! None of our true wishlist have been answered!

You enjoy your new control scheme, because that's all it is, the game looks like blahhhhh! Even the Arenas are terrible and not authentic! EA Sports has always focused on authentic touches like that, and it's even lacking. I remember Live 06 was the first game to even get Madison Square Garden right....and no one likes the Knicks

[mrprice33]

Isn't jano one of the few who've actually played the game? Why attack him? He's not trolling anybody.

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

[Behindshadows]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

Isn't jano one of the few who've actually played the game? Why attack him? He's not trolling anybody.

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

Edited!!! And regardless if he played it or not. Doesn't mean the game direction is correct.

[pdawg17]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

Edited!!! And regardless if he played it or not. Doesn't mean the game direction is correct.

Is there a correct or incorrect with game direction? Or is it simply each person's opinion?

[Behindshadows]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

Is there a correct or incorrect with game direction? Or is it simply each person's opinion?

There is a correct direction! If I develop games. And you as a consumer along with hundreds and thousands more across multiple forums. Have complained about the same issues since the first game developed on 360/PS3. (LIVE 06)

And those same primary issues are overlooked each year, yet 1 thing is focused on every year. With all the other issues, still not fixed or even altered.

I think that is a miss direction.

I think we as a company should focused on fixing those issues and not focus on other things that aren't broken to try to alter who our fans are. (Think about it)