Suction, Control, and Animations

[jmood88]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

Of course not everybody will like this control set up, just like not everybody liked FN4s control set up.

All I've been saying is this: if they deliver on the promise of the control scheme and the physics (which still very much is in question) then this game will be a GREAT building block for the future of not only this series, but for basketball games in general. Some people are openly rooting against them, and I don't know how that benefits anyone. Theoretically RTP and true 1-1 controls are better than what we've had before. If they get a chance to fulfill the potential of this new design philosophy, it makes things better for us, as we will get better games. Maybe not this year, but it sets the stage for the future. People complain all the time about how there's no innovation in sports gaming, how everything is so stagnant compared to other genres, but it seems to me like every time a developer takes a chance on a sports game, people whine and complain that things are different than they used to be. It's damaging to the industry. If the game winds up sucking, who cares, except for the people who might lose their jobs over it? There is an alternative game that does things the way they've been done before, and any consumer has the option to purchase that game, if they choose. Nobody is pulling the wool over anybody's eyes, nobody is hiding anything on EA's side. There is a demo coming out that will allow everybody to get a chance to try the game, and we have received a good amount of prerelease information in the form of Q&As and videos. You're not being tricked or deceived in any way. If a consumer decides that EA didn't do enough to get their dollars this year, that's entirely their decision and choice. People around here are acting like the effort wasn't worth it because the 20 minutes of gameplay we have seen (from the first effort, mind you) didn't *look* like it was up to snuff. However, we haven't actually played it yet, nor have we seen whatever might be coming down the road. Wait three years to buy it, I don't care. I'm waiting for the demo to make my decision (much like last year), and if I like it, I'll buy it. If not, I won't, and I'll go to ToG. Or, I'll buy both. It's not *that* serious.

I've seen people talk about this innovation that EA is doing with Live but I'm really not seeing it. The physics are supposed to be realistic but I and many other people can't even tell what has been done. If you let someone watch a video and didn't tell them that the new buzzword was "Real Time Physics", no one would be able to tell that from what they see. You have players skating around the court, the ball not interacting with the rim or people in a realistic way, players jumping as high as they can quicker than what is possible, players able to jump farther than they can in real life etc. I'm just not understanding where the innovation talk is coming from.

[mrprice33]

You may not agree with the direction, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Gamers are some of the whiniest consumers in all of media, I swear. Give the game a chance before you write off the direction. I respect the work you do here but this is a whole lot of hand wringing over a couple of videos.

There is a correct direction! If I develop games. And you as a consumer along with hundreds and thousands more across multiple forums. Have complained about the same issues since the first game developed on 360/PS3. (LIVE 06)

And those same primary issues are overlooked each year, yet 1 thing is focused on every year. With all the other issues, still not fixed or even altered.

I think that is a miss direction.

I think we as a company should focused on fixing those issues and not focus on other things that aren't broken to try to alter who our fans are. (Think about it)

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[mrprice33]

We'll know when we play it whether or not they've succeeded in innovating.

I've seen people talk about this innovation that EA is doing with Live but I'm really not seeing it. The physics are supposed to be realistic but I and many other people can't even tell what has been done. If you let someone watch a video and didn't tell them that the new buzzword was "Real Time Physics", no one would be able to tell that from what they see. You have players skating around the court, the ball not interacting with the rim or people in a realistic way, players jumping as high as they can quicker than what is possible, players able to jump farther than they can in real life etc. I'm just not understanding where the innovation talk is coming from.

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[jr2424]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

I just can't understand how EA puts all its eggs into control when most people can't feel that without playing the game. If they're trying to reach the casual consumer to an extent, I think they would be more impressed by graphics and more superficial aspects. As someone said earlier (maybe in another thread) you can't see control. A casual consumer won't give a game that doesn't look good the time of day in most cases. If they download the demo and are impressed then that's fine. But I think a casual consumer would be more impressed by the looks, and if that's the case I think the other game would have an edge in that category.

[jmood88]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

I just can't understand how EA puts all its eggs into control when most people can't feel that without playing the game. If they're trying to reach the casual consumer to an extent, I think they would be more impressed by graphics and more superficial aspects. As someone said earlier (maybe in another thread) you can't see control. A casual consumer won't give a game that doesn't look good the time of day in most cases. If they download the demo and are impressed then that's fine. But I think a casual consumer would be more impressed by the looks, and if that's the case I think the other game would have an edge in that category.

I don't understand why we aren't supposed to judge anything until the demo so that we can "feel" how everything works but they keep putting out videos.

[Behindshadows]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

I don't understand why we aren't supposed to judge anything until the demo so that we can "feel" how everything works but they keep putting out videos.

The casual gamer, doesn't play nor download demos. They go by what they see in Magazines, commercial or what's on the shelf and the only time they get a real demo is when it's playing in a store.

I've seen customers at best buy playing the Live 10 end cap they have and are always talking about how real it looks. I've never heard one of them say, man these controls are awesome. They loved it because they could control virtual players that looked almost like themselves and it flowed nicely. They didn't complain about controls not once, even when they don't know them.

I went to multiple stores, with Live 10 playing in the screen in my trunk, marketing it for them last year, along with NCAA Basketball 10. And people were more amazed at how great it looked, it was always the first thing they noticed during intro's of games and during gameplay. I explain to them the control schemes and they figured it out in minutes and enjoyed full quarters before the next person, played!

Casual gamers could care less about control marketing, they wanted graphics, realistic gameplay movement, etc.

I won't be marketing this year!

[23]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

This is an awesome discussion and drives to the heart of why we chose this direction (imho).

You're right, the reviewers review games as both a pure basketball experience and as a video game. Some take more of the basketball side, and some take more of the video game side.

The average opinion is reflected in the metacritic rating.

And the average amongst consumers is measured in sales.

We still think the basketball side is important, but we feel the video game side has been neglected over the years and needs a serious investment.

If we do a good job with this, we may end up bringing sports gamers who are not basketball fans in to play Elite. If we do that, then they will learn more about the nuances of the sport and may become basketball fans as well.

That's when we know we've made the best game we can.

When basketball fans love it, and non basketball fans try it out and become basketball fans because of how fun the gameplay is.

This is a very telling conversation here as to why we're seeing what we see, and Im not sure where the data is coming from, but you guys are more interested in a videogame rather than an NBA game first.. EA might as well remove the name NBA from the cover title.

The entire underlying force behind this game is metacritic scores and non basketball fans. This is the exact reason for the disconnect with the long time players of this series.

The controls thing is just odd to me because as I said, there is a company without the controls that was able to sell 2 million copies last year, metacritic or not, that has to be the bottom line no matter what the direction is, which is why this baffles me.

Im not sure how things will play out but I guess the saying of lose some to gain some must've come into play.

Its really frustrating seeing as what has been asked of this series for years was never given the chance to see what would've happened, and now we're being asked to just feel it. I see EA's direction and why you chose so, but I cannot find a single reason to agree with it considering all things.

[NEW_ORLEANS]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

I'm starting to think this casual gamer thing is becoming extinct, because I am noticing more and more little kids have access to the internet and really know how to research.

And why can't EA just make a sim and arcade mode like Madden use to have back in the day. Anyone remembers that?

[jtdribbles25]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

The casual gamer, doesn't play nor download demos. They go by what they see in Magazines, commercial or what's on the shelf and the only time they get a real demo is when it's playing in a store.

I've seen customers at best buy playing the Live 10 end cap they have and are always talking about how real it looks. I've never heard one of them say, man these controls are awesome. They loved it because they could control virtual players that looked almost like themselves and it flowed nicely. They didn't complain about controls not once, even when they don't know them.

I went to multiple stores, with Live 10 playing in the screen in my trunk, marketing it for them last year, along with NCAA Basketball 10. And people were more amazed at how great it looked, it was always the first thing they noticed during intro's of games and during gameplay. I explain to them the control schemes and they figured it out in minutes and enjoyed full quarters before the next person, played!

Casual gamers could care less about control marketing, they wanted graphics, realistic gameplay movement, etc.

I won't be marketing this year!

dude, you are really on your own personal high horse. EA doesn't owe you or any of your "fam" anything. It's one thing to have your opinion and your passion for the game. But to act as if you are the voice of everyone is just wrong. Any of the people who are on os, represent such a small part of the overall audience that it's ridiculous to think any company can or should cater to just your wants.

So the fact that I like the direction they are going with the game would make me what, an idiot or blind or what in your opinion. DON'T BUY THE GAME. your voice as a consumer is in your dollar. But let it go, it's not healthy. Move on, stop watching videos, stop spending more of your time trying to anti-market the game. If you really thought that in one dev cycle this game was the answer to all things nba, you came in with the rose colored glasses.

You being Capt. EA for all these years,went around marketing for a multi-million dollar company out of your trunk like some up coming rapper??? Thats on you.

[Philstat]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

I can see the pain on some long time posters on here. I've played every five on five basketball EA has ever created outside of Live 06-08, I took a break from the series. That said, I play the 2K series mostly, though I still enjoy seeing every year what EA has to offer. I think it hurts to say that EA has moved away from our fan base, they are looking for the non basketball fan to pick up the game and try it, simplifying their series so it's approachable. I honestly believe this is why they haven't fixed the 82 game schedule and injuries in game, the non-NBA hardcore fan will sim through most of the season and would NEVER want to see one of his primary players injured.

EA has moved away from our type of desires and have looked to sell a basketball game to the masses, not a good move IMO, 2K sold well over 2 million games last year to BASKETBALL FANS! EA has tried for years to introduce many off shoots of basketball, games such as Street, Jam and others. This is their goal IMO, this is the market they want. I just wish they would come out and make it official, they are no longer interested in putting out a good simulation of basketball, instead they want a game that has basketball as part of the attraction.

I can see why many long time fans of the series are depressed about Elite 11, it doesn't address many of the long term issues that have plagued the series since its inception on this generation of consoles. EA has moved away from us in search of the "casual gamer" well guess what, the casual gamer isn't buying this game and in the end EA will lose us as well - not a good formula for success IMO.

[rEAnimator]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

This is a very telling conversation here as to why we're seeing what we see, and Im not sure where the data is coming from, but you guys are more interested in a videogame rather than an NBA game first.. EA might as well remove the name NBA from the cover title.

First, but not exclusively. It is still an NBA basketball sim game, but we want it to have the level of control and user influence a video game player expects in this day and age.

In no way does that warrant removing NBA from the title. That's just ridiculous.

Every single bit of effort that has gone into the AI is directly towards NBA authenticity and realism.

What you're implying is an insult to the people who work on that part of the game.

The entire underlying force behind this game is metacritic scores and non basketball fans. This is the exact reason for the disconnect with the long time players of this series.

The underlying force is sales, which can be analyzed using metacritic rating amongst other things.

If sales are up then more people like the game. It's a basketball game to its core so it has to be fun to play and represent the sport accurately to succeed.

I don't know why people take offense to us wanting to increase sales and having sales determine the direction of the game.

It's the ultimate in democracy. Let the consumer decide what they want, and they vote through sales. It's how every company operates at its core, and how success is gauged.

On top of that, we tend to take influence from sites like these where the fans are more informed and vocal than the average fan. And we've done that this year. I could list numerous things in the game that were a direct result of community interaction. Some features and some changes. But all significant.

But as to a disconnect with long time fans of the series...that's been there for a while. Many people who played Live back in the day aren't playing it anymore.

We want to win them back, keep our current fans, and win over new fans.

In order to accomplish that we've taken the direction of controls and physics, but have not given up on basketball authenticity in the least.

We've willing to sacrifice visuals yes, but that has nothing to do with basketball authenticity in my personal opinion.

Challenge me on that, and we can discuss it. I'm quite confident in my statement.

[JerseySuave4]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

First, but not exclusively. It is still an NBA basketball sim game, but we want it to have the level of control and user influence a video game player expects in this day and age.

In no way does that warrant removing NBA from the title. That's just ridiculous.

Every single bit of effort that has gone into the AI is directly towards NBA authenticity and realism.

What you're implying is an insult to the people who work on that part of the game.



The underlying force is sales, which can be analyzed using metacritic rating amongst other things.

If sales are up then more people like the game. It's a basketball game to its core so it has to be fun to play and represent the sport accurately to succeed.

I don't know why people take offense to us wanting to increase sales and having sales determine the direction of the game.

It's the ultimate in democracy. Let the consumer decide what they want, and they vote through sales. It's how every company operates at its core, and how success is gauged.

On top of that, we tend to take influence from sites like these where the fans are more informed and vocal than the average fan. And we've done that this year. I could list numerous things in the game that were a direct result of community interaction. Some features and some changes. But all significant.

But as to a disconnect with long time fans of the series...that's been there for a while. Many people who played Live back in the day aren't playing it anymore.

We want to win them back, keep our current fans, and win over new fans.

In order to accomplish that we've taken the direction of controls and physics, but have not given up on basketball authenticity in the least.

We've willing to sacrifice visuals yes, but that has nothing to do with basketball authenticity in my personal opinion.

Challenge me on that, and we can discuss it. I'm quite confident in my statement.

just out of curiosity, what happens if sales go down this year? Does that mean you scrap and start over again?

And sacrificing visuals in a next gen game is not a good thing. You think it has nothing to do with basketball authenticity but when you see the amount of sliding in elite how does that represent basketball authenticity?

[jr2424]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

I really don't understand EA's reasoning because the didn't simplify or dumb down the nhl series and they've seen tremendous critical and commercial success because of it. It makes even less sense considering littman was the guy who resurrected the nhl series. I'm totally confused by it. Wouldn't it make more sense to be as SIM as possible when u see the success nhl has had?

[mrprice33]

In what way would you say this game is dumbed down?

I really don't understand EA's reasoning because the didn't simplify or dumb down the nhl series and they've seen tremendous critical and commercial success because of it. It makes even less sense considering littman was the guy who resurrected the nhl series. I'm totally confused by it. Wouldn't it make more sense to be as SIM as possible when u see the success nhl has had?

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[jr2424]

Re: Suction, Control, and Animations

In what way would you say this game is dumbed down?



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Visually, Sig shots, arena authenticity, refs not moving, the sliding on the court. These re all things that we've seen that are plain as day. I know the demo will give us a chance to try out their bread and butter feature (controls) but what the videos have shown is not sim.