Has EA finally given this series an identity?

[Boilerbuzz]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

I'm not sure how you can't use the the NHL situation as an example. It's similar in that NBA 2K has implemented a far better representation of the game and built on that while NBA Live struggled in keeping up. No, it's not identical but it's similar.

Again too, Littman is approaching it in similar fashion with their 3 year plan as they started with in NHL 2007.

Because that statement is totally false - NHL 2K was NOT far superior to EA's hockey title and that's IF you believe it was superior at all. So NHL 2K had online leagues? I'm sure Joe Blow didn't care. And, again, EA's title was a popular and familiar choice. No offense to the quality of the game, but a big reason it sold more is because people knew the title and it was still a good game for the time.

Finally, I think too much credit is given to individuals that do NO designing, NO art, and NO engineering. If the only common thread is Littman, then it's a very thin line indeed. I just think it's best to not rest on that.

[DaveDQ]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

Because that statement is totally false - NHL 2K was NOT far superior to EA's hockey title and that's IF you believe it was superior at all. So NHL 2K had online leagues? I'm sure Joe Blow didn't care. And, again, EA's title was a popular and familiar choice. No offense to the quality of the game, but a big reason it sold more is because people knew the title and it was still a good game for the time.

Finally, I think too much credit is given to individuals that do NO designing, NO art, and NO engineering. If the only common thread is Littman, then it's a very thin line indeed. I just think it's best to not rest on that.

I guess I don't see how you can't compare the two scenarios but I'm not going to be stubborn. The overall point, irrespective of who the producer is, is that NBA Elite needs an identity and would benefit from it if gamers are patient and the developers stick to the goal.

[23]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

The whole bringing in other sports to justify the change in basketball is really annoying.

Truth of the matter is NBA Live was horrible on Nex Gen from inception, not because of a canned animation or some other buzz word, but because the games were terrible, unfinished, missing features, broken, generic, ugly, unrealistic, poor representations of NBA BASKETBALL, shallow and not worth the money that was charged for it.

Sans Live 09 and 10 people didnt blink twice.... this game has let the fans down time and time again.

There was no identity let alone a good game.

What I see is this.. people can comment and try to downplay animations and all of that hoopla all they want to, but the truth of the matter is even at its worst in controls surprisingly 2k10 sold 3 million copies.

That says alot, especially for a sports game

You can argue til you're blue in the face if you want to, but it seems as if people want to play what they see on tv, presentation, commentary, shoes, individual styles, etc...

To come in and dismiss that as some kind of a funk because of the shiniest new tech is crazy.

Its amazing how the older games didnt have suction and so forth yet they seem to be forgotten.

Its also amazing how much editing that I did in last years game and half of the problem was in the over exxaggerated ratings yet no one takes responsibility or anything, not even acknowledge that some of your issues were caused by guys like Fisher having a 90 on ball defensive rating and a 95 defensive recovery rating which basically meant you werent getting past him even if you got past him.

Whatever it is, I want this game to recreate NBA basketball, not some generic basketball game for the sake of control.

[DaveDQ]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

It's not the comparison of sports. It's the comparison of situations. Live on the PS2 was doing better for itself than now. Even with the branding of EA (a very strong brand), the game dropped significantly...to the point of changing its long time name of Live to Elite.

Obviously that never happened with EA's NHL series. Yes, it may have sold better, but in terms of simulation hockey, many felt 2K had that over EA. That's the only comparison I'm making. 2K has had the basketball simulation experience whereas Live just couldn't claim that. So now you have EA trying to establish themselves as the go to game in terms of basketball much like they did with NHL. Littman did that for NHL and is now attempting it with the NBA game.

Whether or not they accomplish the same success is yet to be seen, but if you look at it from a business strategy, I think the two scenarios are the same. of course they are two different sports. I'm not arguing that. I'm clearly talking about a strategy to develop a game with the goal of making it a success in the eyes of the consumer.

[23]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

Scenario is not the same to me because ones fall from grace was the fault of their own.

2k hasn't done anything but stay steady.. its EA that has flip flopped its way into mistrust and low sales... it never was about superiority, because EA had the upperhand for years.

Im not knocking their direction, I just dont want it to be generic which at this time it seems it likely is.

[travis72]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

IMO I highly doubt Elite will be even close to 2k this year. 2k looks like it is going to be the best game to date. I like what EA is trying to accomplish but don't think the game will be all that good for a true basketball experience this year for guys like me that want as real life as possible. I think that is why Mike Wang said that the direction they were headed he did not fell was in his best interest to stay at EA. I believe Mr. Wang is a true sim basketball fan and that Elite is not going to be that. I think it will be a fun game to play for those online guys and exhibition players but not for Association guys like myself. EA wont come close to 2k until they get a more in depth dynasty mode like what is in 2k. I do hope that EA does start to push 2k because we need 2 basketball games to be battling it out for the best so we dont end up with just one company making the game like football.

[Tha_Kid]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

Im not knocking their direction, I just dont want it to be generic which at this time it seems it likely is.

What did you see that has you thinking that Elite will be generic (more so than Live 10)? And in what sense? Generic like teams/players not playing like their real life counterparts or generic in terms of animations (movement, shots, dribbling, etc, etc)

PS The Beluba talk is no less annoying than the 3 year plan talk or the NHL talk. Stop trying to extrapolate his career choices into why Elite isn't sim. Let's not forget that most people have their own definition as far as what constitutes "sim" and i'd bet Elite will hit on most of the common ground.

[erickonasis]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

The whole bringing in other sports to justify the change in basketball is really annoying.

Truth of the matter is NBA Live was horrible on Nex Gen from inception, not because of a canned animation or some other buzz word, but because the games were terrible, unfinished, missing features, broken, generic, ugly, unrealistic, poor representations of NBA BASKETBALL, shallow and not worth the money that was charged for it.

Sans Live 09 and 10 people didnt blink twice.... this game has let the fans down time and time again.

There was no identity let alone a good game.

What I see is this.. people can comment and try to downplay animations and all of that hoopla all they want to, but the truth of the matter is even at its worst in controls surprisingly 2k10 sold 3 million copies.

That says alot, especially for a sports game

You can argue til you're blue in the face if you want to, but it seems as if people want to play what they see on tv, presentation, commentary, shoes, individual styles, etc...

To come in and dismiss that as some kind of a funk because of the shiniest new tech is crazy.

Its amazing how the older games didnt have suction and so forth yet they seem to be forgotten.

Its also amazing how much editing that I did in last years game and half of the problem was in the over exxaggerated ratings yet no one takes responsibility or anything, not even acknowledge that some of your issues were caused by guys like Fisher having a 90 on ball defensive rating and a 95 defensive recovery rating which basically meant you werent getting past him even if you got past him.

Whatever it is, I want this game to recreate NBA basketball, not some generic basketball game for the sake of control.

now i know why ur a mod...excellent post

[23]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

What did you see that has you thinking that Elite will be generic (more so than Live 10)? And in what sense? Generic like teams/players not playing like their real life counterparts or generic in terms of animations (movement, shots, dribbling, etc, etc)

PS The Beluba talk is no less annoying than the 3 year plan talk or the NHL talk. Stop trying to extrapolate his career choices into why Elite isn't sim. Let's not forget that most people have their own definition as far as what constitutes "sim" and i'd bet Elite will hit on most of the common ground.

I didnt see any player differences did you?

I was pretty much equally good/bad with Wall, Hinrich and Gil.
They could've been there but I felt no differences between them.

I saw Fish pull off an adjusted reverse layup when someone was controlling him.

The same off the backboard dunk they showed Jennings do in that clip
Kobe did it with 2 people in his face... and everybody else in the game attempts the same off backboard pass and dunk if you hit the controls

I see Boozer take off from the ft line

I see Kobe hitting 3's like Ray Ray on a great day

I see Turk taking off from long distance for the jam as well

Same for Ron Artest in the EA clips

Same for Brandon Jennings

Same for Durant

Same for Kobe

Shaq shooting fadeaways

I mean everything that has been shown, in the name of control. I dont remember any team seeming different, even if it was user vs user for the most part.

Sure you might see some scripted recording, a pump fake, jab step and dunk, but the same dunk that KD did is the same one Boozer did.

Somewhere it has to stop, and it has nothing to do with early copies or not knowing how to play.

[noshun]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

We'll see the identity after 1st month sales of both games around Nov. 5th. Then the suits can tell you want identity they wanna go with.

It doesn't help that there will be:

1. No in-game injuries. Why have physics.. with no injuries?
2. No choice of shortened season length. Live 96 have 29/56/82 game option on the Genesis.
3. 3 year project. Third time since Live 2006 of a supposed rewrite. That means that 8 games since 06 will go by before EA has a product they're okay with. 06,07,08,09,10,11,12, & 13.

I will pass.. there other choices out there.

[Young Murder]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

The whole bringing in other sports to justify the change in basketball is really annoying.

Truth of the matter is NBA Live was horrible on Nex Gen from inception, not because of a canned animation or some other buzz word, but because the games were terrible, unfinished, missing features, broken, generic, ugly, unrealistic, poor representations of NBA BASKETBALL, shallow and not worth the money that was charged for it.

Sans Live 09 and 10 people didnt blink twice.... this game has let the fans down time and time again.

There was no identity let alone a good game.

What I see is this.. people can comment and try to downplay animations and all of that hoopla all they want to, but the truth of the matter is even at its worst in controls surprisingly 2k10 sold 3 million copies.

That says alot, especially for a sports game

You can argue til you're blue in the face if you want to, but it seems as if people want to play what they see on tv, presindividual styles, etc...entation, commentary, shoes,

To come in and dismiss that as some kind of a funk because of the shiniest new tech is crazy.

Its amazing how the older games didnt have suction and so forth yet they seem to be forgotten.

Its also amazing how much editing that I did in last years game and half of the problem was in the over exxaggerated ratings yet no one takes responsibility or anything, not even acknowledge that some of your issues were caused by guys like Fisher having a 90 on ball defensive rating and a 95 defensive recovery rating which basically meant you werent getting past him even if you got past him.

Whatever it is, I want this game to recreate NBA basketball, not some generic basketball game for the sake of control.

So do you think EA is trying to create what you see on tv? Whats wrong with adding infinite animations to the physical part of the game?

[23]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

Not first and foremost NO

and they've hinted at that enough times

[Tha_Kid]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

I didnt see any player differences did you?

No, but i'm asking you because you actually played it and can offer something outside of what the videos showed. Still, we're both working with a limited sample.

The same off the backboard dunk they showed Jennings do in that clip
Kobe did it with 2 people in his face... and everybody else in the game attempts the same off backboard pass and dunk if you hit the controls

I figured as much, and it's the consistent questionable decisions like this make me wonder why I'm interested in the series. It's like mapping alleyoop to a face button last year, nevermind how broken they were.

I see Boozer take off from the ft line

I see Kobe hitting 3's like Ray Ray on a great day

I see Turk taking off from long distance for the jam as well

Same for Ron Artest in the EA clips

Same for Brandon Jennings

Same for Durant

Same for Kobe

Shaq shooting fadeaways

I mean everything that has been shown, in the name of control. I dont remember any team seeming different, even if it was user vs user for the most part.

Sure you might see some scripted recording, a pump fake, jab step and dunk, but the same dunk that KD did is the same one Boozer did.

Somewhere it has to stop, and it has nothing to do with early copies or not knowing how to play.

FWIW, if they actually tune the dunk distance to tie in with an accurate rating (one would think it would already but apparently not) or just reduce the distances to a realistic range, that knocks those out. Kobe making shots was pointed out to be that sweet spot for release and the stick is generous on Pro. Since this thread got moved, you know you see the same thing in 2K on default difficulty & sliders, 3's going in at a high rate. I'd put 2k11 on at least All Star and Sim gamestyle before complaints about that so I'll afford Elite the same.

About total control, i'm holding off because while i've seen people defend that idea, the devs IIRC have not given those things a pass in the name of control. I haven't seen them touch on Shaq or the dunks as being allowed because the user wants them so i'm not fed up with the idea. Yet.

Those points aren't to refute what you've said, I agree with your overall point, but i'm hopeful that we just haven't seen it yet (as opposed to it not being there). I disagree with reducing their REAL AI to be a gimmick before giving it a chance to see how it comes together (because their trailer explanation was horrible but stepsix cleared it up well imo). I didn't find Live 10 to be generic until after patches nerfed the D -- actually, I thought the CPU in Live 10 was somewhat generic at running their offense but real ai sounds like it should work well for player differentiation and the devs have said that they worked on the Team AI so it would be an improvement. Basically, I think if the game isn't generic in the first sense I mentioned (players and teams) then it could be something good.

I think stuff like Shaq fadeaways should be knocked out from the jump, but most other games had them until they handed out signature animations (ID04 & 2K come to mind). That doesn't mean I think it is OK. It is the first year for things that Elite is doing but in 2010 you have to come proper, first time or not. 2K10's revamped post game last year was in its first year but still had most players sigged up. The Elite team has yet to bring that kind of dedication to differentiation in the animation sense.

[Tha_Kid]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

So do you think EA is trying to create what you see on tv? Whats wrong with adding infinite animations to the physical part of the game?

Pretty sure they've flatly said no. EA is trying to create the experience of playing basketball as NBA players as opposed to recreating what you see on TV. That is what they've said, minus marketing talk. It is kind of an ironic take when you have ESPN commentary and presentation. They're trying to innovate and think outside of the box, but ultimately the gamers will decide the direction. I'm pretty sure that what 23 is saying is that gamers have already shown that recreating what they see on TV is what they want.

Infinite animations sounds great, but if they're ugly & unrealistic in appearance and how they're determined, what does that do? Not saying that is the case with Elite, but things are looking that way.

OT - For those posting about Beluba, that would be the direction change that would lead him to leave. In his 2K insight, he says that the ultimate goal is to be able to recreate in game anything you can see on your TV watching the game.

[NINJAK2]

Re: Has EA finally given this series an identity?

I have no idea at this point. They have released very little info, no real vid's of gameplay.

I mean all we got is what 23 recorded and we all know how that went over with everyone.

Sounds like they are using 2k's marketing strategy prior to this year. Maybe if it worked for them it will work for Elite. I think we will have two very good ball games this year.........