What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

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  • glucklich
    Banned
    • Jun 2004
    • 4272

    #136
    Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

    Originally posted by rsnomar05
    Red was not the difference in the Wilt vs. Russell battles. Red didn't get Russell 50 rebounds. Red was the difference in the overall TEAM battles. That's like saying Tom Brady isn't better than Drew Brees because Brady has Belicek as coach. As catcatch22 pointed out, Wilt had teammates that could step up. Sure, Russell had better men on the floor around him, but that still doesn't explain why Russell would always out-rebound Wilt.
    Negative. Russells value is tied to team success. And you are incorrect about Wilts teammates. Again, you are underestimating the impact of Red Auerbach. He was Jerry West and Phil Jackson in one package except he was probably an even better GM than West.

    Comment

    • Mo_Magic
      Pro
      • Jan 2006
      • 715

      #137
      Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

      Originally posted by sweettouch
      average over 30 in his career
      six rings with a horrible cast (except pippen)
      nobody in the league could even contain him

      I can name a million things but it will take to long. he was just great if you have seen him play from the time he cam into the league you would just know. he was an all around player he was like kobe/vince/mcgrady/lebron all combined and he could play d.

      I think if kobe can do what he's doing now for a couple of years and win a title he would be mentioned as great same thing for lebron

      I'm just stating my opinion.
      Yeah, Dennis Rodman was horrible... yup... [/sarcasm]

      Nobody in the league could contain him EXCEPT Joe Dumars. Kobe is like Jordan in the sense that he will get his 30+ a night.

      Comment

      • glucklich
        Banned
        • Jun 2004
        • 4272

        #138
        Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

        Originally posted by Mo_Magic
        Yeah, Dennis Rodman was horrible... yup... [/sarcasm]

        Nobody in the league could contain him EXCEPT Joe Dumars. Kobe is like Jordan in the sense that he will get his 30+ a night.



        Yeah, Dumars was so adept at containing Jordan that they didnt need anyone else to rotate over off of their man to hack him when he was in the lane.

        Comment

        • EWRMETS
          All Star
          • Jul 2002
          • 7491

          #139
          Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

          Originally posted by rsnomar05
          Red was not the difference in the Wilt vs. Russell battles. Red didn't get Russell 50 rebounds. Red was the difference in the overall TEAM battles. That's like saying Tom Brady isn't better than Drew Brees because Brady has Belicek as coach. As catcatch22 pointed out, Wilt had teammates that could step up. Sure, Russell had better men on the floor around him, but that still doesn't explain why Russell would always out-rebound Wilt.
          That's the worst analogy I ever saw. Wilt is still considered by most to be better than Russell even with all of Bill's championships. Nobody thinks Brees is as good as Brady.

          Comment

          • Air23
            Banned
            • Feb 2003
            • 2502

            #140
            Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

            Originally posted by Mo_Magic
            Yeah, Dennis Rodman was horrible... yup... [/sarcasm]

            Nobody in the league could contain him EXCEPT Joe Dumars. Kobe is like Jordan in the sense that he will get his 30+ a night.

            Show you how much you know. Dumars NEVER contained Jordan or even came close to stopping MJ. Dumars had a LOT of help. People love to forget this little fact.

            When MJ beat Dumars off the dribble, he always had Rodman and Salley to back him up, two of the Pistons best defensive players. And when he got past them, he had Laimbeer and Mahorn waiting to thug him up.

            Hell, before any of that, Dumars had Thomas or Johnson leaving their man to help doubleteam MJ.

            Comment

            • catcatch22
              Or should I
              • Sep 2003
              • 3378

              #141
              Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

              When a player can lead the league in scoring, rebounding and assists in his career. I can't see how anyone can top that. Chamberlain led the league in scoring many times and it wasn't even close. However your arguments was it was a different era then fine I'll give you that. He led the league in rebounding and yeah I can attest the rules and the time he played helped inflate those stats, but much more shocking as a center he lead the league in ASSISTS! Now name a player now or in present day who could accomplish all those feats. Is chamberlain better than jordan as a winner? no but as a pure athletical basketball player no one could do all the things chamberlain could do as one man. The closest player who somewhat resembles a smidgen of chamberlain's skill is kg yet he does not have the passing skill nor the scoring skill chamberlain possessed. There are alot of guys who were good at winning games or plyaing well to win. However I am talking about pure basketball skill and a total single handed dominace of one player and no one can hold a candle to chamberlain in that respect. Now if chamberlain had better teammates over his career like russell did maybe he would have passed more and won more games who knows. Imagine if you switched the players and put Russell on Chamberlain's teams and put Chamberlain on the celtic teams and see if russell beat would chamberlain then?

              Comment

              • rsnomar05
                MVP
                • Dec 2003
                • 3662

                #142
                Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                Originally posted by EWRMETS
                That's the worst analogy I ever saw. Wilt is still considered by most to be better than Russell even with all of Bill's championships. Nobody thinks Brees is as good as Brady.
                The analogy was intentionally bad. That's why I wrote, "It's like saying..." In other words, I was saying it's preposterous to say that.

                And Wilt is not considered to be better. If so, then why did Russell win the award for "Greatest Player in the History of the NBA" in 1974 and again in 1980?

                Comment

                • rsnomar05
                  MVP
                  • Dec 2003
                  • 3662

                  #143
                  Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                  Originally posted by glucklich
                  Negative. Russells value is tied to team success. And you are incorrect about Wilts teammates. Again, you are underestimating the impact of Red Auerbach. He was Jerry West and Phil Jackson in one package except he was probably an even better GM than West.
                  If his value is tied to team success, that means he is GOAT. The team's success was 11 championships in 13 years. If his value is tied to that success, there is no question about who is GOAT.

                  And a coach can only do so much. Yes, Red was a tremendous coach, but he was not the sole reason for their championships, just like Phil Jackson was not the sole reason for the Laker's championships.

                  Comment

                  • glucklich
                    Banned
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 4272

                    #144
                    Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                    Originally posted by rsnomar05
                    If his value is tied to team success, that means he is GOAT. The team's success was 11 championships in 13 years. If his value is tied to that success, there is no question about who is GOAT.

                    And a coach can only do so much. Yes, Red was a tremendous coach, but he was not the sole reason for their championships, just like Phil Jackson was not the sole reason for the Laker's championships.
                    I guess that would mean that every other player on a significant number of those teams would also be the best ever at their position then. Sorry, thats pure craziness.

                    Comment

                    • blackceasar
                      MVP
                      • Sep 2003
                      • 3228

                      #145
                      Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                      Originally posted by glucklich
                      I guess that would mean that every other player on a significant number of those teams would also be the best ever at their position then. Sorry, thats pure craziness.
                      I make that same argument about Tom Brady and equating his greatness PURELY as a QB to the number of rings he has. The way some people aruged with me about that then the conclusion would have been that Brusci is the best MLB in the game, and thier 3rd string FS who was on those 3 superbowl teams is the best FS in the leage too. When it comes to individual greatness championships are overrated.. BUT I think moreso in football than basketball. In theory you can give the ball to the same player every time down the court in basketball. In football you really cant do something like that.
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                      Comment

                      • grunt
                        Banned
                        • Jul 2002
                        • 9527

                        #146
                        Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                        Sport writers named Bill Russell the greatest player for the 1st 35 years of the NBA that should count for something.

                        Comment

                        • rsnomar05
                          MVP
                          • Dec 2003
                          • 3662

                          #147
                          Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                          Originally posted by rsnomar05
                          If his value is tied to team success, that means he is GOAT. The team's success was 11 championships in 13 years. If his value is tied to that success, there is no question about who is GOAT.

                          And a coach can only do so much. Yes, Red was a tremendous coach, but he was not the sole reason for their championships, just like Phil Jackson was not the sole reason for the Laker's championships.

                          You wrote that Russell's value is tied to team success. If that were the case, Russell would be GOAT. My post was an attempt to refute your point, but I guess it didn't come across that way (which would mean I failed).

                          Comment

                          • TheLetterZ
                            All Star
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 6752

                            #148
                            Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                            Originally posted by rsnomar05
                            Would Russell have gotten the Nike deal were he playing today? He was the league's most popular player, so probably. But he isn't alive today, so we just don't know. So you can't compare the two based on marketability.
                            Since when is Bill Russell dead? Did I miss something?

                            Comment

                            • marq
                              Pro
                              • Jul 2003
                              • 549

                              #149
                              Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                              I know it may not matter 15 pages later...but does anybody remember the pre-title Jordan who was basically triple-teamed everynight but still shot over 50%, and 30-plus a game. What about '87 with the 37.1 ppg, or '88 with the average of 35ppg, 8 ast, and 8 rbs per game? What about the Pippen migraine? What about Brad Sellers? what about the Flu Game? What about 6 straight titles in 6 straight FULL seasons? What about NOT giving him the MVP because he won it so many times before (Malone '97)? What about before his first comeback he averaged 32.1ppg for his career with over 50% for a SHOOTING GUARD? What about at age 40+ he still averaged over 20 for a SHOOTING GUARD, and not a center who stood in and around the basket? What about the fact that he played with only one true HOF and that was mainly due to HIS efforts (quick, someone name a big game where Pippen stepped up and played a COMPLETE game by LEADING the team). I'm finished...

                              Comment

                              • grunt
                                Banned
                                • Jul 2002
                                • 9527

                                #150
                                Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                                Originally posted by marq
                                I know it may not matter 15 pages later...but does anybody remember the pre-title Jordan who was basically triple-teamed everynight but still shot over 50%, and 30-plus a game. What about '87 with the 37.1 ppg, or '88 with the average of 35ppg, 8 ast, and 8 rbs per game? What about the Pippen migraine? What about Brad Sellers? what about the Flu Game? What about 6 straight titles in 6 straight FULL seasons? What about NOT giving him the MVP because he won it so many times before (Malone '97)? What about before his first comeback he averaged 32.1ppg for his career with over 50% for a SHOOTING GUARD? What about at age 40+ he still averaged over 20 for a SHOOTING GUARD, and not a center who stood in and around the basket? What about the fact that he played with only one true HOF and that was mainly due to HIS efforts (quick, someone name a big game where Pippen stepped up and played a COMPLETE game by LEADING the team). I'm finished...
                                Good post but the problem is that you never seen Russell or Wilt play in their prime.

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