What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

[Jukeman]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

Wow, wat was the thread maker thinkin when he made this thread? wat didnt mj do?

oh yea rsnomar, russell was an all time great no doubt but you have to consider than the celtics was the yankees of basketball in those times, while jordan had a terrible team and made them into a great dynasty

[blackceasar]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

If you can really take an honest to God unbiased look at all of the players we are mentioning. And I mean unbiased as in dont root for russel because youre 60 and thats who you grew up watching play and dont root for Mike because youre 25 and thats who you grew up watching. This is why I think this will always be slanted in MJ's favor wether he truly is the greatest or not.

Jordan came into the league at the right time. He came in when the NBA was in a marketing revolution. NBA and Nike were more or less married at this point. The NBA was at its peak with Bird and Magic and the NBA starting marketing its sport like it never had before, naturally though Bird and Magic were starting to go on the decline and the NBA needed someone to be the new face of the league just as Nike needed someone to be the new face of thier shoes. Enter Michael Jordan. Jordan is if not anything else the greatest player of his time and it just happens so also that during that time the NBA was uber marketed which means so was MJ. Bill Russel, Wilt, etc...man back then there was no marketing, not like it is today. Everywhere you flipped on a TV you saw clips of Jordan flying through the air in slo motion, some emotional inspirational music playing in tbe background. NBA, Nike, Gatorade it was a trifeccta of marketing. Im not saying they painted him as the best player during that time, because he already was but the marketing from all of these groups pushed and drove that idea home in peoples heads even more. Flip on a TV and its a Air Jordan commercial with Spike Lee, then later just him. Flip to another chanel and its the NBA itself marketing him. Flip on yet another channel and its a gatorade commercial showing Jordans greatest plays in slow motion. There is an immense emotional pull to all of this. He was smart, very good looking, classy, sophisticated, you couldnt write this mess if someone paid you. Tall black bald, MJ himself was in icon of an icon. MJ become more than a player, he became a product within himself. He was at the top of his game at a time when TV was at the top of peoples recreation list. Some of you will get what im saying, some of you wont. During MJ's career as a player the ratio in what you saw MJ outside of lived telivised games compared to the next person was like 50 to 1.

Im not saying MJ isnt the GOAT. Personally I dont know if he or he isnt. Im just trying to get people to understand why your "average" person is so quick to say its MJ. All of the press, commericals, and attention he got just drew more attention to his game on the court. Russel didnt have this kind of publicity. Back then Gatorade , Nike and whoever else wasnt throwing 100 million dollar ad budgets to marketing agencies then. People werent glued to televisions back in his time like we were in MJ's time and like we are now. Its easy for people to automatically give MJ the GOAT nod and call anyone who thinks differently crazy because people go with what they know and what they see. Very few people in our time and on this board got a taste of Bill russell the way we got our taste of MJ. People are emotionally drawn to MJ. When you see him flying through the air in slow motion with some music in the background you sit back with that "yeah" feeling. You dont feel that way about russel or any of the greats before him because they just werent marketed like that. I work in Marketing, I know what Im talking about. We can make you feel any way we want you to about something, someone, or someplace...and it works. If it didnt companies like Nike wouldnt give companies like I work for 100 million dollars to market a couple of NBA starts and a couple of different shoes.

Like i said im NOT saying hes NOT the GOAT. ..but im saying if the general public were to take a vote, MJ has a substantial unfair advantage due to the era of TV and big advertising dollars, etc that he played in. More attention was drawn to his game which is why someone back in Russels time could have better career stats and more championships and people would still say MJ is the GOAT

[Jukeman]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

^ not really, look at lebron he is the new face now and he is not as popular as jordan now. kobe has more attention than him. you dont see any kobe commercials and kobe had attention on him last year so its not the 81 points

[glucklich]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

Okay, I know this is straight up a dead topic that's already been beaten but why was Greg Anthony hating so much on Michael Jordan? Somehow, he was discrediting Michael saying that he wouldn't be able to take control of games like he did. He even said that the Bulls team that won the 70+ wins wouldn't be able to do it now. Even said that the Pistons would be overall better than that bulls team. Honestly, is that for real? What do you people think of that on the real? It seems like so many of those kats that played against Mike and the Bulls and didn't win any championships always seem to have a nice little negative word against their campaign. Maybe it's because I watched those years or maybe it's because I'm from Chicago. I just don't think it's right. Am I the only one??

2 things:

1) Yes, many of the people who played against Jordan seem bitter or like they try to diminish how great he was.

2) Greg Anthony works for a network who broadcasts NBA games. In doing so he is selling a product. The shinier todays NBA seems, the better off all involved are. If he starts saying this Detroit team is good only by todays standard, and wouldnt stand a chance vs the '90s Bulls, their product (ie todays NBA) becomes less viable because its more difficult to sell something that people perceive is mediocre or less than what it once was.

[glucklich]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

If you can really take an honest to God unbiased look at all of the players we are mentioning. And I mean unbiased as in dont root for russel because youre 60 and thats who you grew up watching play and dont root for Mike because youre 25 and thats who you grew up watching. This is why I think this will always be slanted in MJ's favor wether he truly is the greatest or not.

Jordan came into the league at the right time. He came in when the NBA was in a marketing revolution. NBA and Nike were more or less married at this point. The NBA was at its peak with Bird and Magic and the NBA starting marketing its sport like it never had before, naturally though Bird and Magic were starting to go on the decline and the NBA needed someone to be the new face of the league just as Nike needed someone to be the new face of thier shoes. Enter Michael Jordan. Jordan is if not anything else the greatest player of his time and it just happens so also that during that time the NBA was uber marketed which means so was MJ. Bill Russel, Wilt, etc...man back then there was no marketing, not like it is today. Everywhere you flipped on a TV you saw clips of Jordan flying through the air in slo motion, some emotional inspirational music playing in tbe background. NBA, Nike, Gatorade it was a trifeccta of marketing. Im not saying they painted him as the best player during that time, because he already was but the marketing from all of these groups pushed and drove that idea home in peoples heads even more. Flip on a TV and its a Air Jordan commercial with Spike Lee, then later just him. Flip to another chanel and its the NBA itself marketing him. Flip on yet another channel and its a gatorade commercial showing Jordans greatest plays in slow motion. There is an immense emotional pull to all of this. He was smart, very good looking, classy, sophisticated, you couldnt write this mess if someone paid you. Tall black bald, MJ himself was in icon of an icon. MJ become more than a player, he became a product within himself. He was at the top of his game at a time when TV was at the top of peoples recreation list. Some of you will get what im saying, some of you wont. During MJ's career as a player the ratio in what you saw MJ outside of lived telivised games compared to the next person was like 50 to 1.

Im not saying MJ isnt the GOAT. Personally I dont know if he or he isnt. Im just trying to get people to understand why your "average" person is so quick to say its MJ. All of the press, commericals, and attention he got just drew more attention to his game on the court. Russel didnt have this kind of publicity. Back then Gatorade , Nike and whoever else wasnt throwing 100 million dollar ad budgets to marketing agencies then. People werent glued to televisions back in his time like we were in MJ's time and like we are now. Its easy for people to automatically give MJ the GOAT nod and call anyone who thinks differently crazy because people go with what they know and what they see. Very few people in our time and on this board got a taste of Bill russell the way we got our taste of MJ. People are emotionally drawn to MJ. When you see him flying through the air in slow motion with some music in the background you sit back with that "yeah" feeling. You dont feel that way about russel or any of the greats before him because they just werent marketed like that. I work in Marketing, I know what Im talking about. We can make you feel any way we want you to about something, someone, or someplace...and it works. If it didnt companies like Nike wouldnt give companies like I work for 100 million dollars to market a couple of NBA starts and a couple of different shoes.

Like i said im NOT saying hes NOT the GOAT. ..but im saying if the general public were to take a vote, MJ has a substantial unfair advantage due to the era of TV and big advertising dollars, etc that he played in. More attention was drawn to his game which is why someone back in Russels time could have better career stats and more championships and people would still say MJ is the GOAT

When Russell played, a lot of the colleges who were feeding the NBA its talent were white only schools...also the average height of an NBA player at that time along with the athleticism is something people look at. Russell was the cornerstone of the best team of that era and his claim to fame is that Wilt didnt score as much as he normally did against Russell...but wasnt that still 27 pts a game? Russell may not have even been the best player of his era, let alone of all time. I have a lot of respect for Russell too.

The one thing about Jordan and the marketing is that his career is a series of unbelievable events regardless of the fact that he had a shoe named after him as a rookie. I also think you underestimate how many people signed on to the NBA because of Jordan. You seem to want to give Magic and Bird all the credit for that. Jordan didnt always play on the best teams but he was always the best player from the time he was in the league. He could play lockdown defense and he was unguardable on offense. He could go in the paint or play on the perimeter and be effective.

[Air23]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

When Russell played, a lot of the colleges who were feeding the NBA its talent were white only schools...also the average height of an NBA player at that time along with the athleticism is something people look at. Russell was the cornerstone of the best team of that era and his claim to fame is that Wilt didnt score as much as he normally did against Russell...but wasnt that still 27 pts a game? Russell may not have even been the best player of his era, let alone of all time. I have a lot of respect for Russell too.

The one thing about Jordan and the marketing is that his career is a series of unbelievable events regardless of the fact that he had a shoe named after him as a rookie. I also think you underestimate how many people signed on to the NBA because of Jordan. You seem to want to give Magic and Bird all the credit for that. Jordan didnt always play on the best teams but he was always the best player from the time he was in the league. He could play lockdown defense and he was unguardable on offense. He could go in the paint or play on the perimeter and be effective.

Exactly.

MJ may have been hyped up, but he lived up to, and exceeded, the hype. Bill Russell himself even said something to the fact of: "You were Michael Jordan every night."

[grunt]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

How many people watch Russel play a whole game.

[blackceasar]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

^ not really, look at lebron he is the new face now and he is not as popular as jordan now. kobe has more attention than him. you dont see any kobe commercials and kobe had attention on him last year so its not the 81 points

Lebron and Kobe are playing in a time where there are also 10-15 other players that are almost as good as they are. Jordan was so far above the next player. So you cant compare the Hype of Lebron and Kobe to the MJ Marketing Machine of the 90's you just cant.

[blackceasar]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

When Russell played, a lot of the colleges who were feeding the NBA its talent were white only schools...also the average height of an NBA player at that time along with the athleticism is something people look at. Russell was the cornerstone of the best team of that era and his claim to fame is that Wilt didnt score as much as he normally did against Russell...but wasnt that still 27 pts a game? Russell may not have even been the best player of his era, let alone of all time. I have a lot of respect for Russell too.

The one thing about Jordan and the marketing is that his career is a series of unbelievable events regardless of the fact that he had a shoe named after him as a rookie. I also think you underestimate how many people signed on to the NBA because of Jordan. You seem to want to give Magic and Bird all the credit for that. Jordan didnt always play on the best teams but he was always the best player from the time he was in the league. He could play lockdown defense and he was unguardable on offense. He could go in the paint or play on the perimeter and be effective.

You missed the entire point of what I wrote. Those unebelievable events you speak of got played over and over in peoples heads due to marketing, commercials, ESPN, etc. Basketball was not this marketing and media juggernaunt in Russels era as it was in MJ's era and as it is today. I guess you missed the part about me saying "im not saying hes NOT the GOAT" My whole post was to explain why your "average" person today will drop MJ's name without giving any other players names a thought. Its like automatic and its due to the fact that everywhere you looked when Jordan was on top you saw MJ and it was due to the media, marketing, etc. It just wasnt like that back in Russels time. Nowhere near to the degree now. Like I said in my post, some of you will get what im talking about, some of you wont.

[ehh]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

You missed the entire point of what I wrote. Those unebelievable events you speak of got played over and over in peoples heads due to marketing, commercials, ESPN, etc. Basketball was not this marketing and media juggernaunt in Russels era as it was in MJ's era and as it is today.

Absolutely true, agenda setting and tunnel vision have a big part to do with it.

If ESPN was in it's current state in 1962 when Wilt dropped a hundo, not only would they talk about it non-stop for a week straight, but they'd prolly start a new channel, WSPN, just to talk about Wilt and his great feat, while re-airing the game in its entirety 4 times each day on this channel to break up the constant over-analysis and dead-horse beatfest.

[glucklich]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

You missed the entire point of what I wrote. Those unebelievable events you speak of got played over and over in peoples heads due to marketing, commercials, ESPN, etc. Basketball was not this marketing and media juggernaunt in Russels era as it was in MJ's era and as it is today. I guess you missed the part about me saying "im not saying hes NOT the GOAT" My whole post was to explain why your "average" person today will drop MJ's name without giving any other players names a thought. Its like automatic and its due to the fact that everywhere you looked when Jordan was on top you saw MJ and it was due to the media, marketing, etc. It just wasnt like that back in Russels time. Nowhere near to the degree now. Like I said in my post, some of you will get what im talking about, some of you wont.

No I got your point. You try to attribute it to marketing but apparently you didnt gleam the point I was making which is that I think people evaluate in a way that is more sophisticated than you give them credit for. And some of your takes were erroneous.

[catcatch22]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

You also got to remember back then the black athlete was not as celebrated as they are now (jerry west is the nba log isn't it). Not trying to make it a race thing but you have to remember race played a huge role in everything back then. Babe Ruth is considered the greatest baseball player of all time. If Babe Ruth was black would he be considered that coming from that time especially when blacks were not even allowed to play yet he is considerd the best of all time. Also basketball was the least popular sport there was. The big sports was baseball and college football. Also there was soo many rule changes like the 3 second rule change, goal tending rule change, carry the ball violation is now almost never called allowing players to drive and take it to the basket more, three point line and many more before even jordan got to play in the nba. So the game and its rules have changed immensly all in favor for the perimeter player. Where in baseball except for the dead ball era and the steroid era nothing has changed rules wise.

So based on all these factors not to mention the mentality of coaches now who make every possesion seem like the last one you can not compare players cause too much has changed the game. I still say Oscar was Jordan's equal because he had to face tougher odds in centers who were allowed to goal tend, 3 sec violate because all the rules at that time favored centers. Now all the rules favor the guards. Its a guards league now. Imagine Oscar today with no palming violation so he can be free to do crossovers and hesitation dribbles without getting called and a three point line and more calls going his way, he would be a totally different player most likely.

[glucklich]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

You also got to remember back then the black athlete was not as celebrated as they are now (jerry west is the nba log isn't it). Not trying to make it a race thing but you have to remember race played a huge role in everything back then. Babe Ruth is considered the greatest baseball player of all time. If Babe Ruth was black would he be considered that coming from that time especially when blacks were not even allowed to play yet he is considerd the best of all time. Also basketball was the least popular sport there was. The big sports was baseball and college football. Also there was soo many rule changes like the 3 second rule change, goal tending rule change, carry the ball violation is now almost never called allowing players to drive and take it to the basket more, three point line and many more before even jordan got to play in the nba. So the game and its rules have changed immensly all in favor for the perimeter player. Where in baseball except for the dead ball era and the steroid era nothing has changed rules wise.

So based on all these factors not to mention the mentality of coaches now who make every possesion seem like the last one you can not compare players cause too much has changed the game. I still say Oscar was Jordan's equal because he had to face tougher odds in centers who were allowed to goal tend, 3 sec violate because all the rules at that time favored centers. Now all the rules favor the guards. Its a guards league now. Imagine Oscar today with no palming violation so he can be free to do crossovers and hesitation dribbles without getting called and a three point line and more calls going his way, he would be a totally different player most likely.

Are you kidding? Jordan is responsible for how the referees redefined what a foul was and also for their willingness to tolerate hand checks. What has made the NBA a perimeter players game is the fact that for the last 25 years many/most perimeter players have been athletic enough to take it to the basket even with a 7 foot player on the other team. In many cases the 6-6 to 6-8 players are/were higher than the 7 foot player.

[catcatch22]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

So your telling me jordan could dominate with the same rules now that are then. If the same rules back then were here now. Guys would not have the latitude to drive as much cause of the palming violation would be called more often which jordan did all the time, I never seen him not palm the ball. Centers would be much more important because if you give shaq no 3 second rule and freedom to take the ball off the rim with no goal tending being called. The league would be a jump shooting league like it was back then. The reason why guys did not drive as much as they do now is because of the rules that were made well before jordan got in the league. You guys talk as if all the rules were made for him which was not the case. these three rule changes has made what the game is today.

1) 3 second rule
2) goal tending rule
3) more latitude given to the ball handler allowing them to palm/carry the ball

remove those 3 adjustments and you have a jump shooting league all over again because guys won't be able to carry and palm the ball to the basket. Plus you would need a center since they can sit in the paint all day and take the ball off the rim.

[keRplunK]

Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

So your telling me jordan could dominate with the same rules now that are then. If the same rules back then were here now. Guys would not have the latitude to drive as much cause of the palming violation would be called more often which jordan did all the time, I never seen him not palm the ball. Centers would be much more important because if you give shaq no 3 second rule and freedom to take the ball off the rim with no goal tending being called. The league would be a jump shooting league like it was back then. The reason why guys did not drive as much as they do now is because of the rules that were made well before jordan got in the league. You guys talk as if all the rules were made for him which was not the case. these three rule changes has made what the game is today.

1) 3 second rule
2) goal tending rule
3) more latitude given to the ball handler allowing them to palm/carry the ball

remove those 3 adjustments and you have a jump shooting league all over again because guys won't be able to carry and palm the ball to the basket. Plus you would need a center since they can sit in the paint all day and take the ball off the rim.

Players would adapt.