Selfish Players

[HMcCoy]

Re: Selfish Players

No one is using only the Olympics as proof that Kobe Bryant is a selfish basketball player. I don't get why you and EC keep repeating the same tired line. This was explained earlier, but conveniently ignored and twisted to the apologist's liking.

Getting assists doesn't make you an unselfish basketball player. In arguably his most selfish seasons in Cleveland 2002-2004, Ricky Davis (who you listed as a selfish player) averaged around 5.5 assists a game. Kobe averaged 5.4 this season, and with more turnovers.

Playing defense doesn't make you an unselfish basketball player. Allen Iverson (who you listed as a selfish player) is considered one of the peskiest defenders of all time who averages 2.3 spg for his career, compared to Kobe's 1.5. AI is one of the most passionate ballers in the league today, but that still doesn't keep everyone from recognizing that he takes a lot of bad shots and has been doing so throughout his career. He also averages 6.3 apg in his career, well ahead of Kobe's 4.6 apg.

There's no consistency in your argument.

Bait taken dangit.

Your first post in this thread points to only the Olympics, as does the post above that. You were called out for using that small sample, and of course expanded. And stop calling people apologists. I'd hate to see KDRE step in and warn you. No seriously, I would.

Ricky Davis averages 3.4 assists for his career to Kobes 5.4. Ricky Davis has never been in a facilitator role, nor has he cared to be. Ricky Davis has never been considered a playmaker. Do assist numbers alone make the point? No. Do those numbers support what my eyes can see...that Kobe makes alot of plays for other guys, and has done so at a high level for virtually his entire career...while Ricky has done been openly called out for being irrationally selfish, including refusing to defer to Lebron whatsoever? Yes.

Does Ivo playing alot of minutes at PG (except for the E. Snow years) help his assist numbers? Yes.

Does passion have anything to do with the topic at hand? No.

Do steals make you a good defender, or has Iverson ever been recognized as a top defender? That would also be a no.

Does a 2.3 steal career average scream peskiest defender of all time in the first place? John Stocton and MJ are somewhere laughing their asses off

You win though. Please stop reading my inconsistent arguments, or better yet, lets do everyone a favor and ignore list each other! Thanks.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Selfish Players

What cracks me up is that SOOO many players have personal agendas that don't involve winning. We can all agree that Kobes mantra is "the only thing that matters to me is that we win, and I get the credit" yet Kobe is the most selfish? At least his selfishness includes taking personal responsibility for WINNING GAMES and not just for furthuring endorsement deals, stuffing stat sheets or setting ones self up for movie deals.

The horror.

As a new personal policy, I'm no longer engaging in circular discussions about Kobe Bryant on this forum. They say that madness is engaging in the same behavior and expecting a different result. Discussions about Kobe on this forum are just an excuse for guys like Kash(sorry, man) to have the cathartic release of bashing him and for Kobe's groupies to defend him.

It really sounds like this:

*****: "I don't care what he do, that ***** think he too good for everybody"
Stan: "Don't talk about my man, you just jealous."

Gross.

That having been said, Hank McCoy brings up an excellent point-- the most selfish player cannot be one of the guys who lives and dies by winning. There are guys in this league who join a team simply to get a paycheck and then do the absolute minimal amount of work to earn that paycheck. Once a player's first priority is winning, they are automatically less selfish than the most selfish player in the league.

Amazing that this thread never even got out of the gate, lol. Usually it pretends to be a discussion before it dissolves into yet another twenty pages of obsessive hating versus obsessive defending.

[HMcCoy]

Re: Selfish Players

But the bait is so tender and delicious! Doh!

[KENYON06]

Re: Selfish Players

McGrady


Take the bait suckers..

[Streets]

Re: Selfish Players

McGrady


Take the bait suckers..

I was actually going to post this myself just to see what people truly think. I think he's selfish because he jacks up shots, and has such a low shooting percentage. But then I see what an amazing passer and how good he is at setting people up (which he often does).

I'm more inclined to label him selfish than not, but it's a tough one because he is one of the best passers in the league, and defers alot. However, as a Rox fan, watching him on a night where his teammates aren't hitting, and he tries to "impose his will" and is icy cold... that's tough to watch, lol.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Selfish Players

The role of the shooting guard is to shoot. He is the number one person on any team that you want taking a jumper. This makes it difficult to call them selfish, because many plays are designed to end with them, and it isn't a passing role. I don't think McGrady has shown excess selfishness considering his position. His percentage is low because his injuries and mentality have made him more of a jumpshooter than he should be.

[Brankles]

Re: Selfish Players

Bait taken dangit.

Your first post in this thread points to only the Olympics, as does the post above that. You were called out for using that small sample, and of course expanded. And stop calling people apologists. I'd hate to see KDRE step in and warn you. No seriously, I would.

Ricky Davis averages 3.4 assists for his career to Kobes 5.4. Ricky Davis has never been in a facilitator role, nor has he cared to be. Ricky Davis has never been considered a playmaker. Do assist numbers alone make the point? No. Do those numbers support what my eyes can see...that Kobe makes alot of plays for other guys, and has done so at a high level for virtually his entire career...while Ricky has done been openly called out for being irrationally selfish, including refusing to defer to Lebron whatsoever? Yes.

Does Ivo playing alot of minutes at PG (except for the E. Snow years) help his assist numbers? Yes.

Does passion have anything to do with the topic at hand? No.

Do steals make you a good defender, or has Iverson ever been recognized as a top defender? That would also be a no.

Does a 2.3 steal career average scream peskiest defender of all time in the first place? John Stocton and MJ are somewhere laughing their asses off

You win though. Please stop reading my inconsistent arguments, or better yet, lets do everyone a favor and ignore list each other! Thanks.

1) You just threatened to tell KDRE on me for saying the word apologist.

I feel like I'm in elementary school again, people calling me a simpleton and threatening to taddle-tale. Very nostalgic. I'll go digging through my closet for a pair of Jncos and LA Lights so I can keep up with you two.

2) You said I further explained myself other than just using the Olympics as evidence... Then why did you say in your post before that

Kobe had an amazing, MVP year as a facilitator, had amazing years as a the leagues deadliest #2 guy, but folks would much prefer to use the Olympic's 6-game sample as "the proof" lol (even tho I agree his gunning was plain bad).

That statement you made was baseless, just defensive Kobe rambling.

3) Yes, passion has something to do with the topic at hand. People have already posted that Kobe has passion for the game, therefore it should excuse him from any selfish talks. Maybe you feel differently, but I didn't post that for no reason.

4) You said Kobe isn't selfish because he gets assists and plays defense. I showed you numbers of two players you listed as selfish, one who gets assists, and the other who plays defense. I could go list other players who are considered selfish on all-defensive teams (Larry Hughes), but it's not really worth the time.

If you're going to throw logic and reason out the window here, I guess I'll be following both.

And I don't know why you continue to disregard the 82 game season + playoffs + Finals + MVP.

Kobe played this season basically the same way he's played every other season, except this time he was surrounded by talent and won games. When your team wins games, most people don't care how you play. His numbers were the same across the board this season as all the selfish Shaq-less seasons before that. One he wins MVP, the others he's ostracized by the media and basketball fans for jacking up too many shots and not winning enough games. He wins MVP (he's got the same number of MVPs as Allen Iverson), then he goes to the Finals, where his shots aren't falling and his teammates aren't doing what they did before... and he gets called selfish again. Fairweathering and bandwagoning, when really the dude has been playing the same way the whole time, adjusting only slightly to the playbook as more talent surrounded him.

For some reason I feel like I've typed this before. Oh wait... I did.
I also feel like you've conveniently pushed aside and ignored this before. Oh wait... you have.

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2038721342


If you're all wondering why this selfish discussion is going in circles... now you know.

[23]

Re: Selfish Players

1)
If you're all wondering why this selfish discussion is going in circles... now you know.

...and now that we all agree on that, i'll lock this one. Hope you guys enjoyed the convo