Kidd to NY a done deal?

[ZB9]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

If Oden can stay in the game longer then 20mins and play more then 70gms they will be dangerous next year

Oden = Emeka Okafor imo

that is not a bad thing. Okafor is solid...but Oden is not going to be the dominant center that many projected him to be

[AlexBrady]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

If you would actually read my comments in the thread, I stated that "Dallas is a second tier playoff team right now". They need to add some pieces to get into the first tier.

Translation- the Mavericks are not a serious contender as they stand currently....however, they do have options to improve their team.

EDIT: I see you edited your post. YOu are correct that Howard is one of the worst "clutch players in the league", and he has a terrible BBIQ. However, he is still better than Hedu Turkolu...and a better trade chip.

I never stated that a healthy Howard alone would have made the Mavericks a contender. What I stated is that they would have had a much better record last season, and a better seed, if Howard would not have missed 30 games. All you have to do is look at their record with Howard, and without him. Clutch or not, he is the Mavs' second best player, and his presence keeps the defense more honest and makes the other players better.

No, he has never been better than players like Turkoglu or Ron Artest and he never will be. Howard is an isolation player who plays long armed defense and thats it. He can't function in a complex offense for a championship contending team. He has terrible focus throughout games and he has never come close to delivering in the playoffs. Indeed, Howard will always be a coward.

[ZB9]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

No, he has never been better than players like Turkoglu or Ron Artest and he never will be. Howard is an isolation player who plays long armed defense and thats it. He can't function in a complex offense for a championship contending team. He has terrible focus throughout games and he has never come close to delivering in the playoffs. Indeed, Howard will always be a coward.

Your coward statement is ridiculous, but I agree with you that Howard is one of the worst "clutch players" in the league

however, he has come closer to winning a championship as a second option than your boy Turkoglu has

[AlexBrady]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

I agree with you that Howard is one of the worst "clutch players" in the league

however, he has come closer to winning a championship as a second option than your boy Turkoglu has

Since you love to post scoring numbers mull these finals scoring numbers over.

Howard in 06: 14.6 ppg 39 fg%
Turkoglu in 09: 18 ppg 49 fg%

It isn't close, Turkoglu is poised and surgeon like when the chips are on the table. Howard is prone to seizures down the stretch which is a big problem when the number 1 guy is also shaky.

[ZB9]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

Since you love to post scoring numbers mull these finals scoring numbers over.

Howard in 06: 14.6 ppg 39 fg%
Turkoglu in 09: 18 ppg 49 fg%

Turkoglu averaged 39 % in the ECF last season and most considered it a good series for him (which it was)

It isn't close, Turkoglu is poised and surgeon like when the chips are on the table. Howard is prone to seizures down the stretch which is a big problem when the number 1 guy is also shaky.

if the #2 guy is "prone to siezures" and the #1 guy is "shaky", then im curious why both have had better playoff careers than your supposed model of clutchness.

I agree that Hedo is more clutch at the end of games than Howard, but Howard has still been better than Hedo in his playoff career...and Turkoglu has not had even close to the number of clutch games in the playoffs that Dirk Nowitzki has had. I guess it's about different levels of expectations. A good playoff series for Hedo would be considered sub par for Nowitzki....It's not like Turk is just getting started. He is the same age as Dirk and a year older than Howard.

btw, at 6'10, Hedo's career playoff RPG is 4.5, although he did raise that slightly this past season at 5.3....At 6'7 Josh Howard averages 7.2 RPG career in the playoffs.

[stateprop]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

Makes no damn sense. Why kidd want to go a team that is not going to make the playoffs. He better try to go to a team that will win a ring.

[bigfnjoe96]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

I hope the Knicks can sign Kidd. It looks like the Knicks are willing to give him 3 years @ (18 million) What ever $ he leaves on the table in Dallas, he could make some of it back in marketing here in NY.

Say what you want about Kidd. He is still a top 10 PG in the league even @ 36. His veteran leadership is something we need, especially with our young players.

For all those thinking 2010, his contract doesn't really impact our cap-space as we still will have $ to sign 1 player to a MAX Contract. This fantasy of being able to sign 2 players to MAX Contracts is exactly that a fantasy.

Come on J-KIDD

[ZB9]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

What ever $ he leaves on the table in Dallas, he could make some of it back in marketing here in NY.

I keep hearing that. What "marketing opportunities" would he have in NY losing most of his games that he wouldnt have in Dallas making the playoffs?

we are talking about a contractual difference of around 3.5 mil a year, which would be even more valuable in Dallas considering there is no state income tax in Texas

Kidd is valuable to the Mavs for many reasons, but mainly because he is a coach on the floor for Dallas and calls most of their sets. Would he be running the offense with the Knicks?

[BigTigLSU]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

Just to expand on ZB9's point but kidd at this point of his career is bigger than the market he plays in... Any marketing oppurtunity he could have in NY he oculd have in Dallas or any other market

[ZB9]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

Just to expand on ZB9's point but kidd at this point of his career is bigger than the market he plays in... Any marketing oppurtunity he could have in NY he oculd have in Dallas or any other market

exactly. Kidd would have marketing opportunities anywhere

but especially on a winning playoff team (which is probably not the Knicks this upcoming season). Winning games is more important when it comes to any marketing at this stage of his career than the city he plays in.

[sportyguyfl31]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

I dont want Kidd here.

What's the point of bringing him to a team full of mediocre shooters ad not a lot of quality finishers?


To win 38 games? No thanks.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

Turkoglu averaged 39 % in the ECF last season and most considered it a good series for him (which it was)



if the #2 guy is "prone to siezures" and the #1 guy is "shaky", then im curious why both have had better playoff careers than your supposed model of clutchness.

I agree that Hedo is more clutch at the end of games than Howard, but Howard has still been better than Hedo in his playoff career...and Turkoglu has not had even close to the number of clutch games in the playoffs that Dirk Nowitzki has had. I guess it's about different levels of expectations. A good playoff series for Hedo would be considered sub par for Nowitzki....It's not like Turk is just getting started. He is the same age as Dirk and a year older than Howard.

btw, at 6'10, Hedo's career playoff RPG is 4.5, although he did raise that slightly this past season at 5.3....At 6'7 Josh Howard averages 7.2 RPG career in the playoffs.

I never said Turkoglu was a better offensive player overall than Nowitzki. But he is a better offensive player than Howard is. Howard knows only 2 things, ball and hoop. He only has eyes for the hoop on the offensive end. There is no movement off the ball, clever passes, or tricky handles. He is the picture of ineptitude in the clutch which is a huge detriment to his team to the point where he can't even be on the court. Strictly looking at rebounding numbers is foolish. They play on different teams and occupy different positions on the court. Not to mention Turkoglu plays with the best rebounder in the game and routinely gets rebounds stolen from him by Howard (not that it matters a whole lot).

[ZB9]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

I never said Turkoglu was a better offensive player overall than Nowitzki.

you stated that Nowitzki is "shaky". However, Nowitizki has had far more clutch moments in the playoffs than Turkoglu.

Hedo has been a solid player, but he has not been in the same league as Dirk. It just shows how different expectations are depending on the player. A good series for Turk would be considered a bad series for Dirk

But he is a better offensive player than Howard is. Howard knows only 2 things, ball and hoop. He only has eyes for the hoop on the offensive end. There is no movement off the ball, clever passes, or tricky handles. He is the picture of ineptitude in the clutch which is a huge detriment to his team to the point where he can't even be on the court.

you are overreacting with your vintage Alex Brady comment about him not even being able to be on the court. You are not taking into account that his presense keeps the defense honest and tightens up the Mavs rotation. He is also a solid defender.

I agree with you about Howard's clutchness or lack thereof on offense and the problems he often has on offense. However, he has still been a better overall player than Turk imo

Strictly looking at rebounding numbers is foolish. They play on different teams and occupy different positions on the court. Not to mention Turkoglu plays with the best rebounder in the game and routinely gets rebounds stolen from him by Howard (not that it matters a whole lot).

im not strictly looking at rebounding numbers, but that is a big part of Josh Howard's game

and Turks rebounds per game have increased overall since he got to Orlando. He never averaged over 5.0 RPG until he got to the Magic

[bigfnjoe96]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

I keep hearing that. What "marketing opportunities" would he have in NY losing most of his games that he wouldnt have in Dallas making the playoffs?

we are talking about a contractual difference of around 3.5 mil a year, which would be even more valuable in Dallas considering there is no state income tax in Texas

Kidd is valuable to the Mavs for many reasons, but mainly because he is a coach on the floor for Dallas and calls most of their sets. Would he be running the offense with the Knicks?

There are some pretty nice advantages coming to NY:

1. D'antoni's system is perfect for Kidd.
2. I'm pretty sure Kidd would run the offense, as he is more than capable.
3. I'm pretty sure Donnie Walsh was up-front with him about the Knicks future plans. With that being said it all depends on who comes here next year.
4. Dallas is nothing but an 8 seed in the WEST, if they're lucky as the WEST is very competitive. So this thing about Dallas being a playoff team to me is only on paper.

The reality is if he stays in DALLAS it will be because he got more money & not because the Mavs have a better team than the Knicks or chance have a better chance of making the playoffs

[ZB9]

Re: Kidd to NY a done deal?

Dallas is nothing but an 8 seed in the WEST, if they're lucky as the WEST is very competitive.

I heard that on OS all of last season, but it didnt turn out to be the case in reality

the West was probably tougher last season than it will be this season. Houston, New Orleans, Utah, and the Suns will probably be worse....while the Mavs have opportunities to be better.

Dallas will not be worse than last season unless they have the same injury problems that they had last season...or unless Kidd leaves, which means JET has to play PG instead of SG.

So this thing about Dallas being a playoff team to me is only on paper.

the Mavs have not missed the playoffs, or won less than 50 games, in over 9 years. I would take that bet

The reality is if he stays in DALLAS it will be because he got more money & not because the Mavs have a better team than the Knicks or chance have a better chance of making the playoffs

it will probably be a combination of the two, but I agree that the money will be the #1 factor

and yes the Mavs do have a better team than the Knicks [/understatement]